How has Saint Augustine become a player, a player, centuries and centuries after his death in the debate over post-liberalism? Because this goes very much to Leo's message.

That's right.

I mean, St. Augustine's ideas are very important in a range of political conversations at the moment.

You know, whether it's, first of all, just war theory.

St. Augustine, of course, was the architect of the criteria for a moral criteria for war.

And just war theory is something that's been cited by Vice President J.D. Vance, who is Catholic.

and others in the Trump administration to say that war in Iran is a just war.

How does he envisage, though, Catholic social teaching seeping into public life? Because I don't think he would resile from that desire, would he?

How does the US Catholic Church develop such that by the time we get a Pope Francis, it's a church that resists Pope Francis?

Well, I mean, it's obviously a complex area.

I think clearly some elements in the church in the US resisted Francis because I think they felt threatened by the things that he stood for, the radical nature of his message, you know, a poor church for the poor being central among them, the critiques of global capitalism, the call for protection of the environment.

I think he did make people in power, people who had wealth and influence, feel uncomfortable, and I think that was at the heart of why there was so much resistance.

And, you know, we saw donors to the church in the US being pretty upset.

I don't think it was from everyone, but it was from certain parts of the US church.

What's interesting is that Leo is standing up for what were for decades considered American values.

Here is a pope standing up for the rules-based international consensus that developed after World War II, which was created by the United States.

Put that into context for us.

Well, Jake, I think, uh, the point about Leo is that, you know, he's someone who had the spotlight thrown upon him.

You know, he wasn't seeking to be pope, and he's having to, you know, deal with the fact that, you know, the media and the world is looking to him for, uh, leadership.

But he's someone who is naturally quite gentle and reserved.

He's not someone who goes out there looking to make headlines, you know, unlike as you can see in, with certain politicians.

Uh, but we have seen Leo, uh, become more outspoken recently.

You know, he told me on Tuesday night that he hopes that President Trump can find an off-rampto, uh, the war in Iran.

You write that just before the conclave that elected him began, he wrote to a friend, quote, "I'm sleeping well, relying on the belief that there will never be an American pope." How, how do you think Leo is enjoying the job?