How would you

describe it? It's the dance between the private sector and the government.

So I make the case that policymakers have often harnessed and guided markets toward public goals in order to make Americans richer, safer, their lives more economically stable.

And there's a hidden history.

of us doing this from the 1930s all the way to the present.

It's a Republican project as much as it's a Democratic project and we're going to have to pull out some of the lessons from that if we're going to rebuild on the other side of the chaos that's happening right now.

Let's talk about the chaos.

Do you see that unable to continue in this certain sort of less predictable moment? Or do you see that as continuing to chug along in a healthy way that does lead to some sort of evolution?