So could you talk about this progression of your experience? And then we loop back to the question, is it like the end then when you get to diamond consciousness? Or how should we think about it? Yeah.

Well, I borrowed some vocabulary just to give some basic metaphysical structuring.

We can differentiate between transpersonal experience or non-physical or spiritual reality, astral reality, subtle reality, causal reality, and Wilber places non-dual reality beyond causal.

Okay.

Astral is that dimension of spiritual reality, which is most closely associated with physical reality.

It has some of the characteristics of physical reality.

I don't pay too much attention to that, but I use the categories of subtle reality, causal reality, and for me, the domain of diamond luminosity.

And what can people, how can people relate to it when they don't have this knowledge of or memories of reincarnation?

So I'd love it if you can speak a little bit more to this distinction and whether you feel that psychedelics can reveal certain insights that aren't otherwise accessible through meditation or contemplative practice alone.

Yeah.

Well, that's a complicated question.

That's a rich question because we're looking at two different forms of spiritual practice or two different forms of exploratory deep inner work practice and transcendent work practice.

And I want to tell you, I don't believe that I've worked out an ideal or optimal balance of these two different forces.

I mean, it's been a learning exercise for me.

And my basic, can you reach some of these same states through meditation that I reached through psychedelics? And my answer is kind of a yes and no.

Who do you look to now as... somebody who has like taken this work to the next, to the next level?

You said in your, uh... [laughs]

Yeah.

Well, some of the, um, some of the religious traditions like Vedanta, Hindu Vedanta, they believe that the individual is a temporary construct, and in the end, when one achieves enlightenment, individuality disappears.

It's the drop returning to the ocean.

So once you achieve enlightenment, the individual ceases to exist.

It's only the ocean.

Uh, and that's not the conclusion I've come to.

Mm-hmm.