I, um-

Yes.

On the-- I mean, the Tavistock, they run, they particularly run courses w- using systems psychodynamic thinking, which has no crossover at all with systemic, the systemic literature.

Um, and it's got quite a long tradition.

And they do ha- I think have a psychodynamic, purely psychodynamic course as well probably.

Um, uh, I didn't-- I mean, I was also trained psychodynamically before, in, in some ways before the systemic, my systemic training.

I, I worked in this voluntary sector organization where I had these two influences, psychodynamic, my supervisor was Kleinian, and, um, a colleague had, had just done some training with Peter Lang and Martin Little before they created KCC, and he and I were working with two sisters together and their children, and he was bringing me strange loops to think about and all sorts.

Um, I was wo- I was wondering if it might be helpful in some ways just to, I suppose, before we get into sort of key ideas of, m- maybe this is going into it, of highlighting what, what do you s- what would you share as sort of the main things that make a, a systemic approach to consultancy and working with organizations versus sort of a more traditional, um, way thinking of this type of work?