So how do we explore and find those hidden capabilities and talent with people that we might not understand that they have those capabilities?

Well, unfortunately, I don't think it happens.

I think if you're going to employ somebody, they present their CV to you and you may give them an interview.

You may then find out that they have all sorts of skills that you can use in your organisation.

But mostly you don't.

You take them on.

It's a wish and a prayer.

What does meaningful inclusion require beyond just inviting people into a program?

From your experience, why do so many good projects, and some of them are really good, after the funding ends, they leave no trace?

Yeah, I've worked with some projects that have been absolutely marvellous All the partners were dedicated and they all knew what they were going to produce and they were just thrilled to get started.

And the project finished and we even got a good evaluation percentage.

That was good.

But my one passion is, did we evaluate as we go along? because I believe evaluation should be built into the project from the beginning.

When you write the application, you say what the evaluation is going to be, not the evaluation necessarily of the outcomes, but the evaluation of the project as a whole.

So that's my one passion.

My question is, don't we treat these issues as, let's say, an add-on to projects? They're not usually baked into the essence of the project, or are they? Or do you see any evolution there?