I

mean, some dogs have got...

Their sense of smell is...

It's difficult to quantify, but 600 times better than ours.

They live in a very different world.

They are dichromatic, so they don't see the full range of colours that we do.

Effectively, they're red, green and colour-blind.

What do you think people's mistakes have been, or what do you think the misunderstandings are about evolution?

I mean,

some animals, people just live alongside them and they're kind of there and they don't care too much.

But not hares.

Hares appear in art and literature and culture and poetry and all of those sorts of things.

They do carry a charismatic sort of enigma with them.

If you ever go into a ceramics gallery, you know, there's always hares there.

You know, you don't get a mole or water vole.

Wow.

And to our astonishment, we watch as one of the men carries a hair, rips it in half with his bare hands and smears its blood over the glass farm shop doors.

The whole thing's premeditated, isn't it? They are covered, so presumably they did know there was CCTV there.

And then he signals for the driver to take a look, slowly gets back in the car, and they drive off.

There's something actually insidious and macabre about it, as well as the crime element of it.

It's on a different level, isn't it, really? It's sickening.

Yeah.

Otherwise you could never trust people.

It would only take one person on a mobile in the back of one of those four befores saying Jimmy the dog has just murdered the hare in 38 seconds or whatever it is to anyone in Malaysia where they might be betting on it.

And it's invalid, isn't it?

No?

No.

Because last year we broadcast live from a fox hunt for two and a half hours using 4G SIM cards.

And now we've topped that up using Starlink.

What the hell is that doing out there? Yeah, I can see it through the

thermal here.

Wow, goodness me.

I'm moving left at the moment.

You can see the heat signature, the glow.

mean, it is out of all

control.

I would have said, well, a maximum of 1,000.

It's so strange, isn't it?

It would unsettle the community.

To be completely confused by something that horrific, that would certainly be quite disquieting for them.

the blood stains.

Well, again, they've smeared that all over the shop.

Look all over the door handles and the front of the shop where it says pull.

What a seriously unpleasant thing to do.

These people have got something wrong with them, haven't they? That brings nothing but sadness to my heart.

But in 2021 the threat escalated to a level that nobody saw coming.

I, I was at home on my own with the dogs.

I'd gone to bed quite early for me.

I was lying i, in, in bed and all of a sudden there was just this massive explosion.

The dogs really kicked off.

And then there was a pause and then I realized that at the gate of, of the house there was a fire.

The CCTV revealed what, what had happened.

And he thinks the same kinds of people could be responsible in Abridge.

OK,

we want to support and help all of those people.

And that means allowing them to develop an understanding of themselves and the role that they can play in society, in their families, in their communities, whatever that happens to be.

And this must be something which has happened throughout the course of history.

And at the moment, it might be trans people.

It could have been people with a certain religious belief at some point in the past.

And I think that the othering of of what essentially might begin as minorities in society is simply an insecurity and self-protection of broader society.

Can you see what I mean? Being kind sometimes means having to say, hey, if an anorexic person goes to the doctor and says, gosh, I'm so fat, it's up to the doctor to say, actually, you're not.

Chris Packham told me he believes the report out today is based on old data which isn't specific enough to answer concerns about the impact of game birds.

I think if you look into the detail of the report, you'll see that those people who conducted that research all those years ago looked at common generalist invertebrates, not specialized and perhaps rarer animals.

And in that account, if you have a common generalist, then it's denuded in an area, perhaps around the release pens where they were looking and collecting that data, it would be relatively easy for that population to bounce back.

If you have a localized, specialized insect that's occurring at much lower densities, then it would be a lot more fragile and a lot less likely that that population would recover.

This data isn't broad enough to draw wide conclusions about the impact of game birds on insect populations.

The GWCT says that they have answered the question that Wild Justice was asking about the impact of pheasant releases on the environment, and that it should be answered sc- scientifically.

I don't think this is sufficiently robust evidence.

I, I think the GD- GWCT have a vested interest in presenting this data in the way they have.

Depop, where taste recognizes taste.

I don't have a great deal of faith in the structure of the way that we're educating young people now in, in, in the 21st century.

I don't think that we're really offering o- them, uh, the opportunities to succeed that they need in the moment and, and, and in future.

And if there was...

If Chris could wave his big magic wand, you know, outside of environmental, uh, i- i- issues, then e- education would be one place where I'd be trying to sprinkle some stardust because, at the moment, I see a lot of young people being set up to fail in education.

Yeah.

And, and I, and, and, and from what I see and understand, and again, with no direct expertise here, I, I sh- I think that the system of education is, is just not there to cater for, uh, uh, generations of young people who are under enormous stress.

And, and let's not forget that, you know, when we were kids at school, we didn't have some of those pressures which are putting those young white men and young Black men and, a- and all young people under the stresses that, that, that w- that, that, that-

You've lived there, I've lived there.

No, but look, let's be clear.

If you were in the position that you had to give up your home, give up your family, give up your wife or girlfriend, give up your pet dog, and you were, with very little resources, forced to travel across hostile parts of the world in very dangerous situations and with constant risk to your own life, I mean, there would be a very, very strong and powerful reason for why that would be the case.

But you're making a different argument.

You

We denigrate our own culture.

I think our culture is best exemplified by its tolerance and its welcoming nature.

And I think that where we've demonstrated it in recent times, Kindertransport, the role that we took against anti-apartheid.

What are your plans?

We come here once a month to, to, you know, to sort of do a monthly audit really.

So it's a bit of a catch-up.

Um, Grace, one of our, uh, people that i- is working here, she runs camera traps.

So we go through that and we can see what's been happening, mainly on the mammal bird front on that account, of course.

But then sometimes we have people that come and we've done, uh, sampling in the river, so we'll, we'll look at that.

And then we've got a, a fellow who's coming this afternoon, and he's gonna be surveying the bats here.

This is just part of who I am"?

And I was working minimum wage for eight years because I was being told because of my skin colour.

Well, I mean, it's not just the BBC where you have to put in a lot of extra hours in order to make progress.

I mean, I think the nature of the media industry is such that it is... intrinsically exploitative if that's how you measure exploitation.

We have to invest those sorts of things.

But look, ultimately, you know, you're not going to...

I want and we need... broadcasters which have that flexibility and a duty of public service to represent all aspects of society and to put those people on screen not just on screen actually on screen is the visible side of it they need to be intrinsically involved in all aspects of that and I would argue Andrew that this doesn't just apply we're very much focused on the BBC here this needs to apply through all of our institutions but why?

I was

massively into punk rock and I loved the Clash and I saw them in 1977 and the Clash were really into reggae music and I didn't know anything about reggae music until I was listening to the Clash.

Tell me about your really good film that you've just got out at the moment.

So one of the problems that we face at the moment is that you and I have been discussing all sorts of interesting things which impact upon our society and certainly in our daily news bulletins.

But what we constantly neglect to do is focus on the single greatest problem that our species has ever faced.

And that is that we are significantly imperiled by the impacts of climate breakdown and biodiversity loss.

Now, I say climate breakdown and not climate change because climate change implies it may be benign, but quite clearly we're seeing already that it's not going to be benign.

And biodiversity loss, just to be very clear to your viewers if they're not into the conservation wildlife world, biodiversity is the richness of living things.

So it's the number of different living things living in a spot at a given time.

What's the number one thing that if we could change tomorrow would help all of this?

You in? Must be 21 to enter.

I do think sometimes though, if there was like aliens looking at us or if we went 100 years into the future and we look back at some of the things we're doing, not necessarily eating meat, but the factory farming we do, knowing that these are animals that are capable of feeling really strong emotions and pain and suffering, that keeps me up at night.

That's the most horrible thing.

I close my eyes and sometimes I can't sleep and I see thousands of dogs just being hungry somewhere or pigs being kept in these tight spaces.

the horror and i can't even actually look at those videos that's how horrific they are and i think most people can't and you know so i think we are in a place where but you

I can only talk.

When we look at the things that we consume, everything from mobile phones to food, we make decisions about the economic cost to us, the pounds, the pence.

But what isn't labeled there is the environmental cost of those.

And the environment doesn't necessarily come down to CO2 in the atmosphere or birds and butterflies.

It can also come down to human welfare.

We buy our mobile phones, we know they're full of rare earth metals and we know they're being mined in the most atrocious conditions in various parts of the world.

This is child labour, this is enormous poverty.

And we're weighing all of that up with the price of net zero in a country that is currently on its