Yeah, okay, good.

Yeah, no, 100% full credit.

Me and Johnny were always talking about, I, I don't know if you remember the Norfolk quail, how good they were and how you couldn't get British quail anymore.

And then you did a podcast with the chef from the Greyhound.

Yeah

... and actually Barts is great, and it's doing really well, and we love it, but we thought having two tasting menu restaurants in this current climate, it, it wasn't the right strategy.

So yeah, to do something that, A, you know, food that we just wanna eat-

How does that manifest itself? What influences it has on the way you approach, say if you're a national account manager and you've got this thing of fear, when you go to your meetings with your buyer, how would that change the way you behave in terms of what you do and how you act?

From my experience, I think there's a couple of things.

One is it potentially makes you very cautious.

So you may know what you think is the right thing to do or the logical thing to do, but sometimes you're so fearful of the potential risk involved.

You're not going to get the outcome you want.

You're fearful to present it, show it, discuss it, or discuss it in the way that it needs to be discussed.

You're sort of holding back.

What would you say about how to start thinking about doing your job better? What would you say the big learnings about the human aspects of this?

Right.

So he, he phoned me back and, um, and, you know, he answered my question, but he said, "You know, I got this rule set called Shako that I'm kind of working on.

Would your group be interested in, in play testing?" And I'm telling you, I got totally hooked on that whole process.

And, uh, and that was the start of really digging deep into game design, like thinking about game design.

And it started a relationship with Artie where, of course, I ultimately I got sort of more involved in, especially Shako, where I helped develop into the second edition and all of that.

Um, and we would just have literally thousands of emails exchanged, phone calls that at the time cost a fair about [both chuckling], um, you know, all that stuff.

But it, it was just this cross-continent, you know, international relationship that just absolutely inspired me.

What's the story? How are you trying to s- uh, how are, how are you hoping gamers see the story you're trying to tell with your rules?