So is that something that was... or did it just emerge through the experience you built up over time?

A bit of both.

So maybe if I talk you through sort of my journey first at Shell and then how I ended up in security.

I went into Shell into the marine business, which supplies oil and lubricants to the shipping industry worldwide.

And there was only a couple of us that worked on IT.

There was a bigger team that supported SAP.

But myself and a couple of other team members, we supported about 70 IT applications that I think were deployed in about 80 different countries, something like that, around the world.

And I guess given the role that you're now in and the people and the companies you're seeing on a week-to-week basis, what do you see as the common blind spots? now in organizations that believe they are cyber mature