[laughs] Yes.

Uh, it just, it just sounded like this very commercial-friendly version of indie.

And I mean, that's like, that's what the book Such Great Heights was kind of about, was, like, the gentrification of indie or, like, how indie rock went pop.

Uh, and so it's like you have to think about this album as arriving into the context of, like, iPod ads and coming off of The O.C. and Garden State and Grey's Anatomy, and this was a time when Pitchfork was launching its music festival and starting to get a lot more mainstream attention.

Uh, and, like, blogs were, you know, they had been kind of the hot thing for a couple years.

And so, like, there was all of this kind of mainstream interest in this idea of indie rock, and I feel like it was a different flavor of underground rock kind of bubbling up- Than we had maybe 15 years earlier with Nirvana.

Uh, it's like maybe a little bit cuter [chuckles] um, and cleaner and m- more commercial friendly.

Like where are you personally on twee as like a musical descriptor or a lifestyle?

[laughs] Yes.

Uh, it just, it just sounded like this very commercial-friendly version of indie.

And I mean, that's like, that's what the book Such Great Heights was kind of about, was like the gentrification of indie or, like, how indie rock went pop.

Uh, and so it's like you have to think about this album as arriving into the context of, like, iPod ads and coming off of The O.C. and Garden State and Grey's Anatomy, and this was a time when Pitchfork was launching its music festival and starting to get a lot more mainstream attention.

Uh, and, like, blogs were, you know, they had been kind of the hot thing for a couple years.

And so, like, there was all of this kind of mainstream interest in this idea of indie rock, and I feel like it was a different flavor of underground rock kind of bubbling up than we had maybe 15 years earlier with Nirvana.

Uh, it's, like, maybe a little bit cuter, [chuckles] um, and cleaner and m- more commercial-friendly.

Like, where are you personally on twee as, like, a musical descriptor or a lifestyle?

It's 2015, and I'm in college." But, uh, [chuckles] I bought a CD, and that's, like, maybe still the only CD I own other than, like, a few hundred of my own record, my own albums.

Wow.

Well, he has, uh, this new album that is, like, so crazy that he made with, uh, a, a vocal group, an a cappella group.

I was...

I'm told that they don't like being called an a cappella group.

They're a vocal group, uh, called Roomful of Teeth.

And it's a concept album.

I feel like that is a, an underrated pick.

Please, yeah

... uh, the, the current era or the era that is wrapping up.

Um, so the idea with the book, the subtitle of the book is, uh, The Complete Cultural History of the Indie Rock Explosion.

Uh, but the original subtitle when I was writing the book was How Indie Rock Went Pop.

And my idea was basically, like-When I started working at Stereogum in 2013, um, indie rock was, like, very out of style.

It was like all of the rock bands were trying to be pop and, like, we had the rise of the indie pop star and, like, all of the sort of indie media ecosystem was becoming obsessed with Beyoncé and, uh, you know, the whole subject of poptimism was really big.

And, uh, I wanted to kind of like write a history of sort of how things evolved in that direction and, uh, what was good about it, what was bad about it.

... of, like, the, the culture, say, come from? Like, where does it get pushed from? Like, where, who, where does it-- where are the winds sort of like, uh, you know, read from?