Now let's get back to the show.

What we have is what psychologists call extended adolescence.

And that extended adolescence is because there's been no mark.

There's been no like, you're a child, now you're an adult.

And that extended adolescence, I think, honestly, it can last all the way into our 40s.

because we've not actually marked ourselves.

And if later we can come back to this question, if it's of interest to you guys, but when would you say you became a man? Where was that mark for you? Where was that moment? Where was that ritual? Where was that before and after threshold? And I think we could look at certain situations, maybe, like I said, driver's license, voting rights, getting married, a first job, whatever those things.

witness

For you, Chris, with your work with men, what do you see within our current culture that kind of gets in the way of that or is hampering that? And what are you trying to offer men to help them start to establish that identity or that worth?

So many directions we could go with that question, Jake.

So I'll start with this, that in any recovery program, we have to have a vision of what it is we are recovering.

Okay.

And so if we're looking for healing, we need to know what we're healing.

And so in the work that I do, we spend a lot of time in recovery space talking about what the problem is or what the external behavior is or what the self-identity lack is or whatever it is that you've just named.

Before we jump into any of those things, we have to have a sense of what was the story before that story began.

How do you begin to break this down with guys? What questions do we need to ask or start to dive into?

Yeah.

Let's put that sentiment, those efforts, to where they would make the most difference.

So I have a conversation with, I had a conversation with each and every one of them, and I explained to them the process.

So they would reach out to that area lead.

We have three areas in the state, north, center, and south.

And those are all available, and they can be found on our union's website.

And they can use a QR scan code that was developed by somebody special in our union that ensures that that communication is put out there at that level.

And to be a part of such a group, that does what we do.