An old school approach that's married to the data, that's married to the technology, that respects not only the donor, but the times that we're in.

Right, so I think the science is actually about the human relationship.

At least that's what I'll be talking about.

But I do want to touch upon what you said about kind of the changes that we've seen over the decades.

So when I started, we actually had typewriters in the office, which is wild.

One of the other duties as assigned was to try and find typewriter ribbon, which was very difficult to do.

I mean, now I don't even know what you would do.

And that's another factor in this.

What are you comfortable with in letting AI handle as it relates to fundraising and giving? And what do you think should always stay human?

So it's a difficult question, right? Because I think that a lot of nonprofits are making decisions about how they're going to use AI, where AI can jump into the different game of double Dutch here, right? And so what I want to start with is validating how organizations are making that choice and saying everyone can make any sort of decision.

But what I love about what you just said is trust has to be paramount, right? Because at the end of the day, donors are making a decision about whether to trust, not only an individual fundraiser or an individual organization, but also the industry as a whole.

So the thing to remember is that the, the, the, The nonprofit doesn't live in isolation.

So if an organization undermines trust in and of itself, it doesn't just impact itself, it's also impacting the industry as a whole.

Because a donor doesn't just say, oh, I'm going to stop giving to that organization.

They say, well...

Things

Please keep in mind this is very open-ended.

Yeah, I mean, we could do like a whole conference on the insights that I learned because I think I went into this writing process and even...

So let me start with that.

When...

When I started talking to Wiley about what book to write, I actually said to them, listen, I don't think the nonprofit sector needs another book.

I think there's enough books written and there are way smarter people than me that could write a book, right? Like Jen Chang is the philanthropic psychologist.

Go call her and write a book about it.

What in the book or in all of your research points to how nonprofit leaders that carry this tremendous weight that is very often unseen manage that in a healthy way to show up again and again?

[laughs]

... a conversation, 'cause there's so much science behind each one of them.

But what I would just in short form talk about is our brains go through a set of gates, if you will, a sort of de- set of decision-making parameters.

And, um, and the first parameter is, am I, like, emotionally invested? Am I emotionally open to what's being said? So do I feel it? And the way that we describe that, like, we talk about this all the time, like, "I didn't feel that in my gut.

My gut feels that, like, this doesn't feel right." And that's our body telling ourselves that there's something right or there's something wrong about what's happening.

And we physically feel that.

But our brains are actually telling us that this just doesn't feel good or it does feel good.

What are, what are two to three things that you want the listeners to take away from the conversation about unlocking generosity and rethinking their approach to how we engage with customers, with donors, and building trust and, and thinking differently about the science of giving and relationships?

[laughs] There's a little extra bonus.

Yeah, exactly.

[laughs] And then we wonder why people don't respond.

But it's because we've given them too many things to think about, and the donor doesn't have to give, right? They don't need ...

Th- there- there's no need to give to a nonprofit.

Like, they don't need ...

They do need ...

So when we talk about the human touch and making sure we maintain the human touch, treating donors as people, as partners, not as data points, how can leaders balance that innovation and all the things you've been learning and you put in your book with integrity, particularly now as we get AI and we have all these other technology tools that really can turn into, or what feels like manipulation and treating people, again, as data points? Could you speak to that a little bit?

... about the actual giving piece?

So, I mean, the, the core piece, the, the foundational piece that I come back to is that this is all some sort of identity component, right? Um, whether it's a performative identity or, um, uh, you know, or a, what do we call it, a deeply held identity, um, it's an identity, and the, the social signaling is an identity all its own.

So let's say I want to stand with a particular cause, um, insofar as I want to demonstrate to other people that I'm standing with that cause.

That's an identity of its own, um, that I want to signal to other people that I care about X, Y, Z cause, right? So that's a, that's an identity that it's important to me to be seen in that way.

I'm like you, where, uh, if you look at my socials, I don't say that I, um, I stand with this or I stand with that, because I don't think that doing that on social media actually helps one side or the other or actually does anything meaningful.

I, I don't fault anybody who does, let me be clear.

If someone feels like saying on social media, "I side with this," or whatever, if you do bel- believe that that does something, you know, no harm, no foul.

So I, I, I guess it's, it's kinda complicated, you know?

One is for those folks that maybe feel, constantly feel they're in lack or in a world of scarcity where they don't feel like they want to give, like what are things that they could do to maybe revive some of that joy of giving again?

Yeah, so I think the first key is to understand that it doesn't always need to be stuff that you're giving.

It doesn't need to be money.

It doesn't need to be a thing.

The one thing that even, that most of us have is time that we can give or a talent that we can give.

So spending time with someone that might just need attention is something that we can do, and we know that now we're in a loneliness epidemic, and one of the best things that we can do for other people is to spend time with them and be in fellowship with other people, to just-Enjoy the company of other people, and that's one of the best things that we can do to show someone that we care, to actually know that they are, to care about the things that they care about, to show empathy for another person.

The other thing is that we all have some talent, whether it's being able to create a tater tot hot dish or to be able to knit something or to go grab the, the mail for someone and bring it inside or whatever it might be.

Right

I'm just going to find it.

Someone, somewhere.

And then I went to more conferences and I was like, oh, maybe it's someone else's secret formula that I need to get.

And then I kept seeing like the same three or four slides.

And I'm like, I don't get it.

What am I doing wrong? What am I not getting right? Oh my God, I know.

So there's a bunch of Dr. James's stuff in the book, of course, because that is the quintessential science that relates to that.

So like, how do we bridge that gap?