And then with that then in mind, Charlotte, where does that fit when we talk about phrases such as consultation, co-design, co-production, patient-led research? How-- What, what is the distinction between these different terms?

Thanks, Ros.

I think it is really important to talk about what those terms mean because as we'll talk about later on, I'm sure it's, um, one of the most important things when you're working with patient partners is to be clear about what you're trying to achieve, both with them and also in terms of your own aims and expectations.

So, um, when breaking down these terms, I think of consultation as something that you might do where you ask a patient about a draft leaflet that you've already developed, for example, um, where you've got a pretty good idea of what you want to say.

You've mostly written it, and you want to check if the content is okay.

That model is quick, um, but it's not as powerful as asking patients, is there a need for a leaflet, or how can we improve their accessibility to a service or to a research problem in the first place? So it really is just asking someone for their opinion on something that you've already developed.

When we talk about co-design and co-production, there's, for those experts listening, there's a huge amount of academic literature about this, but I think we can get bogged down there.

How can we go about recognizing, um, patient participation in the work that we do in regards to service delivery, for example?