this is a viable option for someone that wants to start a wine project or do you think the quality result of that is not that great and perhaps there are other ways to tackle that?

Well, I think, sorry, it depends whether you're, for sparkling wine, it depends whether your end game is to make, to be a specialist sparkling producer or whether sparkling is almost a by-product because What you realise in certain parts of the world is that new vines, young grapes, often are seen as not mature enough, good enough to be put into still production.

So for the first two or three years of harvest, you've got some grapes, but you don't really want to make the premium still wine from them.

So that's why I think you get a little sparkling.

It's almost a by-product before the vines are ready for your still wine production.

There, you're absolutely right.

They're essentially going off to... a big cooperative, a big specialist sparkling wine producer to be made.

And so how do you balance the two? How do you kind of try to build your own customers versus using some intermediaries?