This time around, when you're up in your mileage, what was the hardest part about juggling both of those things this time?

Oh, yeah.

And so it was kind of interesting, 'cause this race took place two weeks later in the build than the US half champs.

But, uh, for example, for the US half champs, I think I ran, like, probably some- something a little above 110, then 105.

Or sorry, something a little above 110, then, uh, 88, I believe, and then 60-something miles the week of the race.

Whereas this one, I just went 125, 88, and then back up, uh, the next week.

And so, uh, honestly, I think it's just, we're just a lot stronger.

30K into the Chicago Marathon, are you still just sort of not necessarily thinking of what the time is?

Mm

... like 100 degrees in the summer.

It's about 80, 90% humidity.

It's about as hard as it can be for pretty much any type of running.

And so I kind of found out that through trying to run more mileage by doubling was actually harder, 'cause I was encountering those daytime conditions.

I started just running because there was, you know, no time constraints, like 9:30, 10:30 PM at night when it was coldest.

It was still, like, 85 degrees Fahrenheit.

What do you think went wrong with the, with the four seconds that you were looking for? Why? Did you come out too hard? Uh, were you surprised by your heart rate? When did it start to feel like it was going wrong?

Are you gonna be here for how long? Like, how much do you use altitude in your training?

Oh.

I mean, altitude is, it has such a, a strong gravity, similarly to how we're talking about mileage, when it's just, when you see the best in the world, uh, doing a certain thing, there is, uh, a compelling force, I think, behind, you know, wanting to see kind of why is it that the, the best in the world gravitate towards it.

Is there, you know, is it just about the altitude? Is there a third element, maybe, you know, style of running? Uh, all these different vectors that, that I, I really wanted to analyze.

And even looking at some of, uh, I think Jerry's most successful, uh, marathoners in the past, I just, uh, I was very curious about, uh, kind of real altitude, right? Uh, 'cause historically, I've simulated a ton of, uh, altitude exposure in my own house, uh, all the way back to high school.

Um, you know, it was the end of high school when I got my first generator, and then I u- used it as a sleeping tent all the way through my years at Stanford, and then kind of took that, you know, dialed that up to 11 over the past couple years, uh, training out of Eugene, uh, with Jerry.

And I think, um, really where I wanted to explore with kind of this, uh, Park City extended training block, 'cause we're gonna be up here all the way through Chicago, uh, is kind of just seeing, now that a lot of those vectors that we talked about, transitioning from the track to the roads to the marathons, have changed so significantly, I kind of started to get the sense that if we want to pursue more mileage, we may have to explore some alternate, uh, training methodologies that are maybe not so time restrictive, in the sense that if I wanna spend more time running, unfortunately, that means if you're simulating altitude, you're gonna spend less time in the tent.

I'm curious, like, what is your fueling routine for workouts before, during, and after?

What do you think has changed in terms of what, what has changed and what has stayed the same between his marathon philosophy when Shalane was in her dominance to now his, uh, next prodigy, Charles Hicks?

Yeah, I mean, I've, I've heard Jerry tell stories about, like, the builds that Shalane would do.

Um, and obviously she was a very special athlete and, and, you know, did, did some unbelievable things.

I mean, winning New York, um, was, you know, that's, that's like, that's the, the aspirational standard for any American woman right now, right? In the, in the marathon.

Um, you know, I think Jerry's, one of his greatest skills is that he's constantly iterating.

Like, he has, he has foundational principles, but, like, no two years of training will look the same because he's like, he's kind of a little bit paranoid and he's just always turning over training ideas in his mind, and he's like, "What if we tweak this? What if we tweak that?" I mean, you're not gonna see, like...

He's not gonna, like, resemble a totally different coach.

Granted, I haven't been on this earth very long, but even as I study the history books.

But what's your sort of theory as to why everyone's popped off lately?

I think the main thing I usually go to is my own lived experience, obviously, 'cause that's the, the only thing I can speak to.

And, um, I think that it's not super surprising to me because there were forces that got me into the marathon.

That means that there's a certain gravity that the race had, right? There's a reason that we decided to do it at an unprecedentedly early time, and I think, um, if you look through a purely American lens, I think Conor Mance is like the big one that, that people refer to as like, I think he just really changed the way that a lot of people think about, uh, their sport and kind of the longevity aspect of it.

Personally, I think that the shoes have made a huge difference in a way that, that's relatively unexpected.

I think a lot of people look at them and they go, "Okay, like it's awesome.

These shoes like take off all this time from your race." But I don't think that's actually the heart of it.

... it's-- No. Yeah

How'd you, how'd you get Cole on the team?

I mean, uh, pretty simple.

It's like: "Hey, man, do you see the way we ran to get here at Stanford? Do you wanna do that again?" Uh, there were a lot of variables that went into it, but I think the biggest thing that I learned at Stanford was when it comes to pitching a training situation, the most important thing is, is what are you-- what actually matters to you as a human, not a runner at all.

I think that's the worst thing you can do, is walk into a situation where you're not gonna be happy, but you try to force things 'cause maybe, you know, there's good athletes, good coaches.

None of that matters in a sport that's as psychological as running.

It's, you know, what makes your heart tick? What are the things about the sport that you like? What are the things about the sport you don't like as much? Is this gonna be a good fit for you as a human being, first and foremost? And I knew the things that I really liked about the program.

I knew that, like, in my opinion, I don't think I could ever, like, I think Jerry Schumacher is the best, like, coach I could ever, uh, collaborate with.

[chuckles]