Is the child protection system today for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children, is it working?

Look, the child protection system today doesn't work for any child.

Absolutely.

There is no child that it genuinely works for.

We're at the pub, so let's talk about money.

Sixteen cents in every dollar in child protection actually goes to what children need, and that is strong families and strong communities.

Sixteen cents in every child protection dollar goes to what you genuinely need.

the story and what is happening? To people who haven't visited Alice, what's the deal?

What do you say to that argument?

Uh, again, it's one of those silly false arguments, and it's a, it's a form of distraction.

It's a form of politics.

The truth of it is legislation in and of itself can't change the world.

It cannot.

But what it can do is get you on the front page of a paper.

It can make you look like you're doing something when you're not doing something.

In what way are they treated unfairly?

What do you say to that argument?

Uh, again, it's one of those silly false arguments, and it's a, it's a form of distraction.

It's a form of politics.

The truth of it is legislation in and of itself can't change the world.

It cannot.

But what it can do is get you on the front page of a paper.

It can make you look like you're doing something when you're not doing something.

In what way are they treated unfairly?

But you're still able to hear what Catherine tells us about these continuing rescue efforts and who is and isn't getting the help that they need.

Caracas was hit obviously by the w- earthquake, but the actual worst of the damage is just north of Caracas, about 40 minutes north, and there it's like a war zone.

It's a complete disaster.

Now, I've been a few times in the last few days, and there have been literally people sifting through the rubble, trying to find people that they still know are trapped there.

Um, it has changed.

It's been a week now, so, you know, we, we do see, um, international rescue teams, but it has mainly been people without masks, without helmets.

And people have become quite frustrated and quite angry, especially when they see military in the street that are just standing around or just directing traffic, basically, so there is a lot of frustration.

A- again, is that something you've seen any evidence of?

The plane was going from Perth to Alice Springs.

Which is beautiful landscape, and I'm going home, and it's, it's over red soil.

I am really happy with red soil.

And the pilot comes over and says, "Look, we're gonna have a really f- fast flight.

Uh, we should have you down in about an hour and 20 minutes.

Beautiful conditions ahead.

Everything is good." And I'm looking down at the ground and I'm thinking, "Oh, the plane's bouncing a little bit.

Armed with this knowledge, the government started to listen and to put their trust in the community organizations.

And Aboriginal groups condemn changes to the Northern Territory's child protection laws.

The potential for harm is enormous, and I cannot say that clearly enough.

The potential for harm is enormous because child protection systems result in harm.

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She says Aboriginal organisations want to have these difficult conversations with the NT Government, but instead they've been met with a legislation change they weren't consulted on.

The potential for harm is enormous, and I cannot say that clearly enough.

The potential for harm is enormous because child protection systems result in harm.

She says town campers must not be blamed for these tragic circumstances

The person accused of that murder did not live on a town camp.

That is not what happened here.

To blame town campers for poverty, to blame town campers for massive policy and social failures is not fair.

They...

Though that blame sits fair and squarely with government

She says town campers must not be blamed for these tragic circumstances

The person accused of that murder did not live on a town camp.

That is not what happened here.

To blame town campers for poverty, to blame town campers for massive policy and social failures is not fair.

They...

Though that blame sits fair and squarely with government

What, what did you have to say?

What did... [sighs] Yeah, uh, that's pretty much what I talked about was, um, you know, when you get asked to speak at something like this, um, how do you, how do you describe that? You can't say privileged.

You can't say honored.

None of those words are right.

None of those words are right.

And, uh, I, like many people, went up to the top of Anzac Hill, and if you're not familiar with Alice Springs, Anzac Hill is our highest point, but it's also our big sister.

It's one of our ancestors.

... uh, Kumantjayi Little Baby to be asking those questions, those tough questions?

What are some of the considerations that need and, and maybe should come from this tragedy when time is appropriate?

There are gonna have to be some really, really tough questions.

And s- and, and, you know, we're gonna have to take a really targeted look at it.

Front and center on the mind of everybody is, how did someone get released from a correctional facility 500 kilometers away from a town camp in Alice Springs? How does a system let people out of those facilities with no money, no food, no transport, no home, no transitional housing? How does that happen, and what happens to someone when they are released like that? We're going to have to ask questions about how that happened and how just days later it's alleged that person killed and abducted a child in the most horrific way.

We're gonna have to ask questions about what happens when you overload a prison system when you say you're being tough on crime, but in actual fact what you've done is overloaded a already overcrowded prison system with 600 additional people.

Think about that just for a moment.

Like, think about a hotel, probably the easiest way to visualize that now.

Catherine, how does Alice recover from this? What do the next few weeks look like, and then how does the community, not move on because that's not the correct turn of phrase, but how does the community keep going after a tragedy like this?

What would be the wrong lesson to take from Kumanjayi Little Baby's death?

Mm.

Yeah, and I think that is one of the concerns that we're hearing from the family but from Aboriginal people more generally, "Stop blaming us." Um, again, this...

[sighs] How do you even describe it? [laughs] You know, they're...

I think people are just so tired of banging their heads against the wall.

The conditions on town camps have been known for a very, very long time.

It wasn't the conditions of the town camp that were responsible for what happened in this moment in time, and often when we start talking about those types of things, we start turning our blame on the people who were victims themselves.

Do you think that this horrific case could be a turning point in terms of the national gaze on these issues?

Uh, how have we been seeing that playing out in the relationship between community and police and some community views about what should happen next?

Look, I think community, um, has always, uh, right, it doesn't mean ...

Uh, look, all sides of community have pretty much been saying the same things, and that is that they want Baby found, that they, they want, um, that they want justice, and it will absolutely mean that, um, our, what we'll see right now is our community-controlled organizations coming out really strongly and, uh, encouraging everyone to reach into the health-and-wellbeing services.

Everyone will be saying, "Please be calm.

Uh, we know that the family is hurting.

We know that everybody is hurting.

But reach out and get support, because right now, um, it's, it won't, it will inflame the situation if we get on things like social media, if we start pointing fingers." There is going to need to be a very deep prosecution of some very big policy failures around social housing and custodial policies that need to be interrogated, and they need to be interrogated with teeth.

What should happen next in Alice Springs? What do you see the role of the community and the leadership?