Yes.

After college, everyone was in business, and I got into advertising, and I worked for Time Warner, Time Magazine, and it was this incredible job.

I loved meeting people and traveling.

Um, I worked for them, and near the end of about 10 years, my heart was starting to feel restless.

Like, "Is this really it?" You know, even though the lure of money and, um, traveling and everything was very glamorous.

It was the number one print job here in the Twin Cities.

But my heart was like, "Oh, is this it?" And on a timing corporate sales incentive trip, we were in Costa Rica, and a group of us went whitewater rafting, and I had what you would call a near-death experience whitewater rafting that was life-changing, that I survived, but it really cracked me open to like, what am I doing? How am I living my life? And I decided to follow my heart, and I gave my notice within weeks of getting home from this trip to just pray, meditate, journal, listen, listen, and that's when it came to me, this new path of studying theology, and I've listened ever since, every step.

And my question for you, Catherine: I hear that you've had these remarkable experiences that have, you know, touched your life in a very significant way, and often when I'm working with people who don't have a faith-based system or haven't experienced really an understanding of spirituality and, and that sense of that oneness, the bigger picture, so to speak, how do you encourage people to just start that, start that journey when they feel like they, they haven't, quote, "had their life touched" in a way where that seems available, or they didn't grow up with faith or religion or spirituality, and they don't even know where to start?

you out of the water? Like, how did you get out of that?

Yeah, no, we, interestingly, before I went down the path of becoming a minister, a chaplain, author, all that I'm doing, I worked for Time Magazine, and it was a Time Inc. corporate trip for their top salespeople, and I, we went down these rapids that were really treacherous.

We shouldn't have gone the head of our raft.

It's hilarious.

He's like, Oh, I'm head of the Costa Rica Olympic team.

He was crazy.

And I was in the corner of the raft and helmet, everything life best.

you seem like you'd be a super death doula Well,