Can you talk about that a little bit?

bit?I can.

I think the caring for the elderly parents thing is huge, and if you want to understand the problem of estrangement or cutoff in siblings, which is v- much more common than you might realize, I think 28% of people according to one of the biggest studies have had one or more period of, periods of estrangement.

Then midlife, going back to the family home, answering that, you know, bat signal in the sky to come and help, that is a flashpoint for estrangement like almost nothing else.

Because what, what happens then, or can happen, is if you haven't done the thing, and all of this is predicated on having a reasonable relationship to start with, but if you haven't done the thing of making friends with your siblings, getting to know them as other adults, understanding who they are, then you can be smashed back together i- [laughs] in the family home with all of the funny things that that does to us with our dynamics.

We start to behave like we did when we were, we can do, 15 and they were 12, and all of the funny habits and, oh, it can feel kind of maddening.

And then when you're throwing care into the mix, not only do you have the gendered part of that which means that often it's the eldest daughter who, you know, shoulders the burden of it, but also we have this strange s- [laughs] sort of, um, tendency to think, "Well, you know, he can't help with the, uh...

So, um, tell us more about your podcast.

When you started investigating what this looked like in other families, what did, what did you find out about step-siblings?

Gosh, it's so interesting because there's such scant research about step-siblings and stepfamilies and half-siblings and families that are, you know, with half-children in them, whatever they're called.

Blended families, sorry.

And I think that's a theme in the whole book, that sibling research is hard to do.

You know, the, the, the train I described at the beginning with all of these variables means that once you study a family with more than two children, it almost becomes unwieldy.

So it's easier really, I think, almost to have theories or ideas which you can apply to all families, regardless of shape or size.

So all of that is to say, when I started to look for research about step-siblings, uh, half-siblings, blended families, and stuff, I found that in the States, for example, when the Pew Research Center gathers data about family shape and sizes, until s- really recently, I can't remember where, there'd be like one box to tick for siblings, and it, it didn't differentiate at all.

[laughs] So what was it about Harry's account of his estrangement with William that so many people related to and f- and found familiar?

no and we are going to touch we're definitely going to i've got some questions specifically about how our childhood dynamics with our siblings really play out in terms of adulthood and how we often return to that but i've just got a couple more questions specifically from the perspective of those who are listening from the anxiety bit and obviously we know the rates of mental health challenges within young children are going up we've got a 30 percent generally in terms of neurodiversity so I think that this is particularly relevant the piece that you wrote about about glass siblings a child who's seen through rather than seen because of a sibling's need kind of consumes the family attention from your what you looked at and discussed it what does that sort of invisibility actually do to that to that child and can you explain it a little bit more so parents can understand because I suspect this is probably something we're going to see more and more of

yeah I think it's like a lot of parenting of more than one child, it comes down to resources, right? We have a finite amount of money, time and attention.

We don't have a finite amount of love, luckily.

And if somebody has a big need at a time, and it could be something other than disability, it could be that you've got a tennis prodigy on your hands, you know, you've got to drive all over the country to play matches, and the other one just has to come along for the ride.

That means that a lot of those resources are necessarily diverted because often you're in crisis mode then before it becomes chronic or maybe chronic feels like crisis.

I don't know.

But I know from friends who've been in this situation that it's incredibly hard to balance such different needs.

I mean, those roles, I think,

Yeah.

What's my kinda niche gonna be? [laughs] So then they subconsciously, consciously sometimes think, "Right, then I'll be the artist," or, "I'll be the messy one," or, "I'll be the cr- or the funny one or the creative one." And you might have noticed with friends you've got more than one kid, when you have a toddler and then you have a baby- You're not as wrapped up in en- entertaining the baby 'cause frankly, the toddler requires more attention.

But you'll notice when you're making train tracks or Play-Doh or whatever you're doing with the toddler, if you happen to catch the eye of the baby who's been sort of put in the car seat-

Yeah.

And, and, you know, that can be very real for people.

And then it can come about because those resources need to be shared for difficult reasons.

So I did an event recently at a literary festival, and I'm not joking, this 73 or 4-year-old woman took the microphone to ask a question, and she was in tears saying, "I have resented my sister my whole life because she was poorly as a child, as a baby, when I was a little girl, and so my mother, all of her time and attention resources went onto this poorly baby, and I've never got over it, and I've never-

That's M-Y-S-K-Y-L-I-G-H-T dot com slash daily.

Hello, my name's Catherine Carr and I'm the author of Who's the Favourite? The Loving Messy Realities of Sibling Relationships.

And here are the five key takeaways from my book, which I learned during the research.

Number one, your relationships with your siblings could be potentially the longest of your whole lives.

Number two, we don't talk about these bonds enough and it really matters.

Number three, the midlife crunch, why siblings end up in therapy in midlife and how to avoid it.

Estrangement is more common than you think.

They may even wear matching outfits or go to a twin festival to try and marry a matching pair.

... and comforting

Yeah.

I did-Do an interview with someone who says that she calls her chosen sisters chisters, and she's got a lot of them 'cause she's an only child.

And I was like, "Oh," 'cause there's a chapter in the book about language.

I was like, "Maybe there's a category of language we need to develop- Mm ... for when we go and make a chosen family to help us," because I think someone witnessing, like your friend Jesse has, everything that you've been through- Mm.

Mm ... to be able to be like, "Do you remember when?" And for them to say, "Yes, I do," that's so comforting.

Yes, and often literally, not just me telling her about things.

Jo, Jo has the gift.

But what do we know about the way that it's contributing to the rising number of young people, especially girls, being treated for eating disorders?

Well, we can't really say for certain because the research isn't definitive.

But eating disorder charities are calling for tighter regulation on the content that young people are exposed to.

And some of the girls I met felt there was a definite connection.

One of them, for example, had been treated for anorexia.

She first became unwell at fourteen, and she's nineteen now.

She told me that what she saw online did play a part in how she thought about food and her body.

This culture has shaped the way they talk about food and health and their bodies.

Where, where did you find that girls kind of come alive or are able to shed their inhibitions and talk freely?

I mean, I've, I've written a piece for BBC Online about this, and my conclusion is that girls are still really influenced by the presence of boys and how they're told or feel they're told to behave online and in real life by boys and men, and the third space as you're describing, dance clubs.

Dance United Yorkshire I went to.

Incredible.

Netball club in, um, Cheltenham, Hucklecote Netball Club.

Dr. M's, an incredible youth club that I went to both for boys and for girls, and I had an email this morning from the leader there saying she's been reflecting on the difference between the boys' interviews and the girls', and since me visiting, she said, and I read, "It's been a call to action.

We've started a girls' football program.

Do they see it as a choice, expectation? Do they talk about it?

So Catherine, what about the mix of boys and girls, sisters and brothers? Does, does it matter, or are siblings siblings and they just do what they do?

[laughs] They just do what they do.

Um, there's a study out at the University of Utah that looks at sort of rebellious teenage behavior, and Dr. Sean Whiteman, who's the, the guy who did that, he concluded that gender really does matter for a number of reasons.

His overarching conclusion is that sister-sister relationships tend to be closer generally and over time, and certainly, as I was saying at the beginning, like in old age, let's imagine we end up in a care home together with our siblings, sisters there tend to be closer.Followed by sister-brother relationships and then brother-brother relationships tend to be, he finds, more conflictual and less close.

The really interesting thing about his study, which as I said looks at rebellious behavior is that more than gender or age gap or anything like that it's when kids hit puberty that matters So he found that brother-sister siblings could be very close if the brother is two years older and hits puberty at exactly the same time as the girl does, because that's what tends to happen with boys and girls.

So it's something about being at the same developmental stage which helps with closeness, which might explain why so many twins, I mean, there's lots of other reasons, but feel particularly close.

And it might also explain why in early adulthood, as I said, when we're going out into the world and trying to shed our childhood identities we often go into different life stages, get married or get a job or buy a dog or find a partner, and you can sort of leave each other behind at that stage in your 20s.

But what does the science say about families where there are siblings and versus families where there are only children?

Carry on.

So we moved to Holland to do that, among other things.

And when I was 11, my parents split up.

Really common.

What wasn't so common is that my mum left and my little sister went with her.

So she was six at the time.

I was 11.

Is it is it inevitable that perhaps parents, dads and mums will will look more fondly upon the quotes easier child? Is that just inevitable?

Yeah

... with really not very tired parents probably, quite optimistic, quite hopeful, quite full of plans, quite idealistic.

And that child will be funneled and showered with attention and resources.

Everything they have will go to that first child.

The second child is born into a family where the person that they might model and who might mentor them or resent them or show them how to do things is probably a two or a three-year-old.

So they're born into a world of childish language and childish things, where the resources have to be split and diluted and attention has to be sort of fought for.

So I think you can say that.

Yeah