Cassie, I'll start with you.

Sure.

Um, I think certainly we're going to see a lot of cases, um, discussing, you know, maybe it was very clear to the justices about what this means in terms of what is an incis- an incidental discussion.

I think as practitioners, that's not going to be so clear to us.

And so, especially because Alito was writing for one, um, he gives some helpful examples, but is-- are lawyers bound by that, right? And so I think that one of the most important things for practitioners to do if they're facing this type of bar, which of course the court could do sua sponte or prosecutors may increasingly be asking for this, um, just as they ask, for example, to sequester witnesses, um, is making sure that they know exactly what the court in front of them is, is talking about and kind of teasing out some of these scenarios with the court so that you have a very good record.

And if it goes beyond the factsUm, in Villa Royale, then certainly that's something that can be challenged, right? And so, uh, you know, it is difficult because when you're talking about strategy, for example, which everyone says is permissible, um, when you say, "Listen, your testimony is hurting us, um, let's discuss a plea." Of course, as we were discussing, you know, [laughs] many times your client's gonna say, "What does that mean? Um, how is it hurting it?" And, uh, you sort of have to say, "I guess, I...

we can't talk about that.

As a prosecutor, did you ever have any luck, uh, getting the court to, uh, grant reciprocal discovery, order the defense to, to turn things over before you were in mid-trial, and how did that play out in cases in our district?