Or are they, in some instances, offering substantive, uh, uh, you know, op- opposition to what the, uh, far right is proposing that would need to address some core system failures?

failures?So in the, in the '80s and part of the '90s, most of the mainstream parties, um, opposed.

Um, they didn't necessarily engage with the far right on topics of immigration or European integration.

They just kind of kept it off the agenda.

Um, in the 21st century, most of the b- uh, important parties have largely mainstreamed the position of the far right, particularly on the issue of immigration.

And so it has now become, uh, allegedly common sense that multiculturalism has failed, that immigration is a threat to national identity and security.

And that doesn't only come from the mainstream right, but in many countries also from the mainstream left, and the best example is the Danish Social Democrats who are among some of the most anti-immigrant parties in Europe.

I wondered if you'd fill in for our listeners what these headlines and news stories left out of providing a more complete and accurate picture of where Germa- German voters are today.

Your reporter spoke with Cas Mudde, Stanley Wade Shelton UGAF Professor of International Affairs at the University of Georgia, who provides an overview of increasing support for European far right parties and the parallel success in Germany of parties on the left.

Particularly in the 2010s, the far right has pretty much entered every parliament of an EU member state.

But more importantly, far right parties from Giorgia Meloni in Italy to Viktor Orbán, who just got out of power in, in Hungary, to Law and Justice in Poland, these are now either the biggest right-wing party or the second biggest.

They are often in government or they're considered, uh, an acceptable partner for government.

And that, uh, those are the two most important changes over the last 15 years.

It is first of all, the far right is now often the biggest right-wing party, and they are pretty much normalized within the right-wing bloc.

And therefore, because European politics is coalition politics, they're seen as eligible coalition partners.

Fill in for our listeners what these headlines and news stories left out of providing a more complete and accurate picture of where German voters are today.

Professor Mood, talk a bit, if you would, about the causes of voters across Europe being attracted to these far-right politicians and parties that often offer simple solutions to complex problems that often revolve around identifying scapegoats, amplifying racism and hate that has, in many instances, provoked political violence.

In many ways, the causes are fairly similar to the support for Donald Trump in the U.S. in the sense that there are a lot of grievances which center first and foremost on immigration.

immigration related topics there is an element of economic anxiety to that too but it is not necessarily the case that the poorest people or the people in the areas with the highest number of immigrants vote for the far-right but people who vote for the far-right a believe mostly that immigration is the most important issue they also believe that that the other parties are either corrupt or incompetent.

And while it is true that they provide relatively simple solutions, it is also important that these solutions are often empowering, or at least give the impression that they empower people.

Because largely what they say is, if we just kick out these immigrants, if we just replace these politicians, then overall life will be good again.

So you don't have to change the whole economic system or the political system.

And this is attractive because many of the mainstream parties will perhaps be more honest, but will also say, look, we have only limited power because of globalization or because of the EU or because of the U.S., And that overall gives many people who are not happy with the situation they're in, they have two options.

Yeah, so there

Mhmm.

Uhm, het is eerder dat, is een soort van moedeloosheid.

Want, uhm, kijk, het gaat niet alleen over 44%, uh, het gaat over 44% voor een partij die echt extreem rechts is, met name die branche daar in, uh, Sachsen-Anhalt en in een land wat, uh, als laatste nog enigszins bezig is met het, uh, verleden van het fascisme.

Ja.

En, uhm, een van de dingen die ik en vele collega's al jaren zeggen, is dat als je meepraat met uiterst rechts over hun thema's en met hun frames, dat uiterst rechts daardoor wint.

steeds meer mensen neigen naar een uiterst rechtse stem?

We weten dat er heel veel onvrede is over migratie.

En we weten ook dat migratie eindeloos als topthema... op de publieke en de politieke agenda wordt gezet... waarin de frames worden overgenomen... waardoor bijna iedereen nu spreekt over immigratie als een probleem... als multiculturalisme heeft gefaald...

Als je dat eindeloos zegt, dan gaan mensen dat ook vanzelf wel denken.

Met name als je iedere keer in de krant leest over allerlei problemen.

Dat is één ding, want migratie is centraal bij de stem voor uiterst rechts.

Maar daarbuiten speelt ook mee dat er heel veel onvrede is... over de sociaal-economische situatie.

Wat moet er dan volgens u nu wel gebeuren? Wat moeten die partijen wel voor houding aannemen?

What is your take on this?

Yeah.

I must admit that the start is less politicized than, uh, I had expected, and I think many others had expected.

And that is, in itself, also really interesting because you have the biggest show in the world in the US.

You have a president who is obsessed with shows and being at the center of them, and he has largely ignored it because he is organizing his own, like, MMA fights [laughs] in the lawn of the White House, which shows you, first of all, still how secondary the status of, of football, soccer is in the US, particularly within right-wing circles, right? I mean, I don't think there's any other president in the world that would have pretty much ignored a World Cup in their country.

Um, but he's completely obsessed with his own thing.

But the other thing is that it's true it's not so political as expected because Trump himself hasn't spoken out.

Um, do you think there is still a risk, uh, in this World Cup that, uh, it might be used to, um, legitimize controversial, uh, political issues?