Yeah, yeah.

And yet somehow we're, we're in this, like...

And I don't mean to sound so spicy about it, but we're in this, like, weird capitalist moment with product management, and product design, and engineering, you know, in these startups where we're, like, doing bad design, but we're like, "But it's for monetization." When I paint, I feel very, very present.

I mean, it's, it's a physical practice as much as it is a visual one.

Like, you are moving around your studio.

You ha- you know, I always have, like, a bunch of brushes.

You know, there's, like, [laughs] all with different paints on them, you know? And so I'm moving around physically.

And, and, um, so how is it for you? [laughs]

having

me, and I'm doing great.

It's a very hot day here, and it's our first in the whole Vermont summer, so I'm very happy today.

Tell us a little more about yourself and how you got to where you are today.

Tammy, you know me from Fjord and Accenture.

Before that, I worked in design consultancies for many years and then ended up at Fjord through the Chaotic Moon Studios acquisition that Accenture did.

So just like a little backstory on that.

While we're on that topic, where are you at on that spectrum?