Yes, Sandwinder.

Okay.

And, uh, I, uh, I would- got involved, uh, with the VWs primarily, uh, through dune buggies.

Uh, I had a '56 Corvette that I was slaloming in Southern California and, uh, had to race against this little, uh, dune bug, which ended up being one of the first 10 Meyers Manxs that was run by, uh, the Crown Manufacturing Company, who made the Corvair to VW adapters and reverse cams and things like that.

So I had, I had to race against this little powerful, lightweight, good-handling little dune buggy.

And he, he not only cleaned my clock all the time consistently in the slaloms all over Southern California.

Uh, this is, uh, 1964, six- well, it's 1965, and he was competing against Corvairs, XKEs, Stingrays, Ferraris, and absolutely nothing could touch that car.

... of this idea of like, "Hey, I wanna make a Baja kit, but I wanna make it different," how does that come about?