Can you take us inside them and how they work?

Yeah, afternoon, mate.

Um, good to chat.

Um, look, the more I reflect on them over the years, they've been very mixed.

And if I give a couple of examples, I think the head coach of most teams is really half a tic-tac coach and half a mind coach.

So I think they quite liked meeting the referee to try and see where the referee was mentally before a game.

So you'd often turn up on a Thursday or a Friday, late in the week.

Yep

But for you, what is that communication like on the field in the heat of the moment? Because from an outsider looking in, there looks like there's a lot of chat coming our ref's way.

Yeah, that's a good question, Mya.

I mean, just going back to the coaches meetings, I actually thought the best meetings were when they actually brought the captain So when the coach brought the captain along, because that's really the person that you have to engage with in the heat of the battle for 80 minutes.

So that was the most beneficial when they could actually bring the captain.

And as an example, Steve Hansen used to often not go to the meetings, but he'd send Richie and Dan to the meeting with the, with the overseas referee.

So on the field, I think it's sim- as simple, Mia, as the more the referee talks to the players, the more the players think they can talk back to the referee.

So I actually think half the chat is really because the referees are over-explaining things, justifying things, trying to build these on-field relationships where they think if they explain everything multiple times, the players will think they're doing a good job.

Yep

And if World Rugby gave you a free hand to introduce, remove or change one Lord tomorrow, what would it be

and why? Well, I'm going to give you two because I didn't have time to think of just one.

I would sort the TMO out because it's an absolute pain in the butt.

And I don't blame the TMOs because they're really just doing what they've been told to do.

But I really try and get that back under control.

I think there are too many referees now who rely too much on their TMO rather than just referring what's in front of them.

And they don't get enough quality refereeing and enough quality assistant refereeing from the sideline.

What is it about our referee community that keeps drawing you back and what and who were the people that had the biggest influence on your journey?