I wonder, you know, is that something that many sustainable leaders also struggle with? Do you believe that human and mankind can actually make a dent in the environment?

Yeah, well, my background is a little bit unique.

I have a degree in environmental science and I hacked my degree in the 90s to kind of work on sustainability in business.

I did my first internship in an oil refinery because I wanted to go where I thought I was needed and to try to learn as much as I could about kind of the most, what one might say the dirtiest kind of industry.

And I tried to really learn from their perspective and the people working in the refinery.

And what I learned in the refinery was that I might say environmental activism and they would say conservation.

Like they were working for Ducks Unlimited so that they could keep hunting and fishing and they cared about the environment, but it was just a different, came from a different angle.

Would you maybe share a little bit more about OGC, what it does, and also how it governs maybe a little bit differently than most companies?