What's going down? How is he defending it?

Yeah, you're right.

Most people don't like anti-vaccine folks, don't like the anti-vax message.

I think something like 19% of people who are polled think that Trump is handling this measles outbreak well.

So it's really important to note that this message that Kennedy chose to send to this anti-vaccine organization he used to lead, Children's Health Defense, was one of a very fringe segment of society.

He went and he said there, you know, we've done so much for you already, anti-vaxxers.

We've already changed the childhood immunization schedule as much as we could.

You know, what's so interesting, I didn't know this until you and I talked last, but at this conference that you're talking about, you had to attend via live stream because, well, why don't you tell us, tell the viewers at Connect why you couldn't attend in person and what was behind all of that?

Yeah

...

the, this is what's happened.

The State of Pennsylvania says we have four measles deaths, two infants too young to be vaccinated, an 18-year-old who was unvaccinated, and a 40-year-old woman who was unvaccinated, all died of measles.

And, uh, Kennedy just told his CDC to say, "No, don't count them." And if you don't count them, can't really complain.

And so, like, that is what we're seeing.

We're...

What the hell is he talking about? Do you have any idea what he's talking about?

Tell us.

Yeah, I mean, so [sighs] we knew this was gonna happen, or I knew this was gonna happen because there is an anti-vax playbook, and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is the head of anti-vax.

We saw it during COVID.

And what happened during COVID was when, um, someone would die with COVID, from COVID, they would say, "That person didn't die from COVID, they died with COVID." That was their, their talking point.

That was Robert F. Kennedy's talking point.

And that's because when you have a death certificate, you don't say COVID, you say they died from acute respiratory whatever, right? Secondary cause, COVID.

Same with the measles.

Yeah

Brandy, tell me a little bit about what RFK did exactly down there in Lancaster.

Yeah, it was 2021, so it was the middle of the pandemic.

We had vaccines at that point.

They were working.

And he was on a tour with his, uh, anti-vaccine organization called Children's Health Defense.

He was on a tour with them, and he goes to, um, mar- marginalized groups.

He goes to vulnerable communities when it comes to vaccines.

Yeah.

So what did you learn?

I mean, I've spent 10 years tracking conspiracy theories on the right.

And so when this happened, when Charlie Kirk was murdered in September of last year, it did something sort of different than all of the others I'd been tracking.

And it just it really opened the floodgates in a way that I wasn't quite prepared for from within the MAGA movement itself.

So there's this sort of unwritten rule.

They joke that it's, you know, Reagan's 11th commandment, which is thou shalt not speak ill of another Republican.

But with the second Trump presidency, because it's been based so much on the conspiracy theories of a stolen election, that COVID was, you know, a bioweapon, like all of these really wild conspiracy theories.

What did Erica Kirk tell you about all these theories around her husband's death?

Mm

...

they weren't close in that way.

But they did exchange texts often.

Sometimes she would come speak at Turning Point events because she was contractually obligated, because Turning Point took, um, took ownership of this movement, Blexit, this business that she had started.

So they were still, um, contractually linked, and it go- I, I think it's important to note that I've seen text messages, I've seen evidence that suggests that, um, Charlie was really holding her at arm's length because of her, uh, the rise of conspiracy theorizing that she started to do with Brigitte Macron, the First Lady of France, um, with vaccines.

A lot of things.

Mm.

[laughs]

So she went wild and started attacking me on Twitter in this, like, what we now know to be very, uh, Candace Owens way, and it was sort of wild, and I decided, oh my God, I really wanna write a profile of this, like, very strange, you know, woman.

Between the time I decided I wanted to write a profile and the time that that was published, she was scooped up by Turning Point, so I ended up going to a Turning Point event, talking with her and Charlie.

At the time, I was just...

I thought that she was very of the moment in this way that turned out to be very, very true for the next 10 years.

She has always been very of the moment.

Again, to understand why she would do what she's doing to Charlie Kirk, to Charlie Kirk's legacy, to Charlie Kirk's business, to Charlie Kirk's widow, to Charlie Kirk's friends, I think you have to understand who she is, and the spoiler of who she is is that she is not only willing but always in search of the ability to say what no one else will say.

But from whatever you can say about it, how do you feel about the direction of Turning Point USA? How do you feel about the people behind it, and where do you think it's gonna go from here?

W- how quickly and how large this conspiracy theory or the theory started, started to kind of grow up and take hold?

Yeah.

Um, I, we started out because the Zapruder film, what's interesting about that is that it was 12 years after, um, John F. Kennedy was shot that that video was made widely available, and it really did sort of spark a new, uh, just brand of conspiracy theory.

Everybody was watching every moment of it, dissecting it, and it really did sway a lot of opinion when you look at public polling.

Now, when, with the assassination of Charlie Kirk or with the killing of Charlie Kirk, it was immediate.

And not only was it immediate, it was pushed into the feeds.

The algorithms, especially of X, served it up to people who did not wanna see it at all, and it started playing immediately.

Like, it's had pretty profound coalitional effects to the actual political faction.

And I was like,

whoa, that is such a surprise to hear.

And this lady was like in tears.

Like she really was like, and she was a normal lady.

Utah, you know, she...

Relatively normal seeming.

She was from Utah.

something.

Right

...

but then also just, like, blatantly false.

Inauthentic, not organic.

So, like, I have an app on my phone right now.

So I can log on to this app called SideShift, and there are, like, campaigns that you can join.

One is from Project Bullhorn, and what Project Bullhorn did was they hired people $400 for 30 posts a month, and they hired these people to s- come on and make these fake videos saying, "I'm from Michigan and I can't afford groceries, and it's so bad, and, and ugh, it's so hard to be so poor," and make it make sense.

Just sort of talk us through what her trajectory is.

But Turning Point USA, as much of an activist organization as it was, it was also a giant media production house, right? So it's like you're seeing all of these figures sort of not only go through this experience, but also in a way performing this experience, right? I'm just curious if you have any thoughts or like what that looks like in person as somebody who recently was at this courthouse, spending time around these figures, observing them, reporting on them, that sort of thing.

Yeah, I mean, I had definitely had this feeling when I was in the courtroom, you know, it was us in the media box and only 14 members of the public got in.

And then it was, you know, you look one side and you see Senator based Mike Lee and he's, you know, glad handing with Jack Posobiec and Benny Johnson.

And then on the other side, you have, you know, Donald Trump Jr.

And and it's it.

And then, of course, the murder trial of, you know, this century so far, I would say.

or at least the case of the century to see if it goes to trial and how long it takes to get there.

How do you view the power structure? And, you know, what kind of interactions have you had with figures like Colvitt?

Mm-hmm

... a real way.

That's a great...

One of the great things about social media is that small marginalized groups can actually get together and make a, a big noise and get political power.

But, um, in these cases, I, I often like to see how campaigns are using the platforms, and we've seen, you know, from Obama using social media for the first time and then in twenty sixteen the way Trump really, um, took over Facebook ads and just threw money into social media ads like that and then also, you know, made the way for this organic movement of, you know, deplorables, uh, to come up, the, the alt-right to come up online with him.

That was original.

Um, and, and now we're seeing what I think is interesting in terms of AI usage, which I know you guys have talked about before in political campaigns, but also this, this idea that we've seen in entertainment that clipping, the clipping industry, how they're sort of using social media to make it look like certain candidates have this huge following or lots of interest where people are seeing their content and then serving it up in a different way to their communities or their, uh, online friends.

Oh, okay

Ah.

"So we're not asking you to endorse any candidate.

We just want you to tell people to explore their options and not be swayed by any influencers like Cat Abugazale.

Here are six things that you can say.

Please highlight more than one." And so it's very like easily flouting the rules.

So they have all this stuff that, you know, I sent to, um, candidate Abugazale and she's like, "This is slanderous.

This is not true.

He does not say that he was paid for this, but it-You can draw your own conclusions.

We immediately opened up that investigation because that sort of Signal chat being coordinated with individuals, not just locally in Minnesota, but maybe even around the country, if that leads to a, a break in the federal statute, then we are going to arrest people.

Kash Patel and AG Pam Bondi are under immense pressure at this moment to get some results for this war on Antifa, the violent left, that the president started waging over the summer.

On September 25th, Trump issued this national security presidential memorandum called Countering Domestic Terrorism and Organized Political Violence.

It just listed a ton of vague bad guys that President Trump was calling on the FBI to work with local officials to crack down on.

Now, it is up to Kash Patel to show some results.

Benny Johnson really cornered him at that moment, and so he said he's opening an investigation.

Now, domestic terrorism is not a crime, but it does, with this memo, give the FBI license to go and investigate people who i- are under this domestic terrorism umbrella to try to find crimes.

[banging]

So first, just to sort of set where we are, this is- what is this panel that met today?

This panel is called ACIP.

It has been around for decades, and it advises the CDC on what vaccines we should recommend for children.

It's usually made up of experts.

It has been forever, but s- over the summer, RFK fired all of those experts and put on his group of anti-vaxxers with a couple of experts, who are actual experts, sprinkled in because they had been sort of COVID skeptics, so they were allowed on the panel.

Um, thank God they are 'cause they were the lone voices of dissent on this vote.

This is a circus.

... because they don't want everybody to panic.

That is the way they sort of explain their, their connections here.

That's right.

He and his followers set up these three media prongs, um, that they deny is part of their religion, but Li has come to The Epoch Times offices and said, "This is our media." And if you look at the tax filings from each of these groups, because they're all nonprofits, you will see the board members that sit on the Shen Yun board are also the same board members that sit on The Epoch Times board, as are the same board members who sit on NTD TV's board, and you will see Shen Yun gives money to Epoch Times and then Epoch Times gives money to NTD TV.

They j- they share money, they share staff, they share executives, and they share a mission is really the way that all of these, these arms are combined.

And you will hear Master Li, whose speeches are available online, he goes to each of these, um, groups and he says, "You are our media.

Here is your mission." So they get their marching orders from Master Li.

What changed to give it such a, a rise in national prominence here in the US?

US?Throughout the 2000s, they started to make slow, steady progress in expanding their reach.

Geesh.

And he brought, he brought Kennedy in, and he had a meeting with the, the transition team, and they came out of that meeting saying, "This guy is nuts.

(laughs) He cannot be anywhere near this administration." They were trying to, like, be, you know, buttoned up.

They were trying to be real.

No one thought they would win, and they did, and they were like, "We can't have this guy," and so they booted him out.

And now, not only ...

We always knew that Trump thought, 'cause we, he had tweets about, like, autism and vaccines, we knew that he sort of thought that, but we really didn't understand, like, the length to which he believed in this stuff.

That's good.

So, just on a very basic level, why is the Trump administration making this announcement right now? What does it actually mean? And what's their motivation here?

Okay.

So why they're making it now, I think it's pretty clear and it's because Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has promised that by September we would have the cause for autism.

Now, in the meantime, since he made that promise over the summer, it has been bad news after bad news after bad news for the Trump administration in terms of public health.

I mean, we've had the gutting of, um, research.

We have had cancellation of research.

The big vaccine panel that recommends vaccines was all fired by Kennedy.

But can you help just fact check this? As someone who's been reporting on this, what do we know about the research the administration is citing and what are real actual doctors and researchers saying about this?

So please explain.

... what it does is it should be an independent panel of independent experts that advises the CDC on what recommendations it should make from vaccines.

So it looks at all of the data and then says, "We recommend these things." And they vote on it.

They're very experts.

And then, you know, the CDC will usually adopt those recommendations.

But this time you have, you know, 17 people who are all handpicked by RFK.

Some are anti-vaxxers.

That is so intense, dude (laughs).

And why? How? Right? These social media companies are the most sophisticated, well-funded organizations, and we keep saying like, "Is this, is this unavoidable or is it by design," right? Scal- Scott Galloway often says, "The one thing that sells better than sex is rage."

Yeah.

I mean, when I, when I was a kid coming up on the internet, which was a while ago, um, there were sites where you could see gore like this.

There were sites where you could see very violent events, often people's last moments, and you had to seek it out and it was hard to find.

It wasn't easy.

You had to download the videos.

It took a lot of time.

Everyone does.

Word.

... lawmakers know it, and all kinds of people, (laughs) regular people have been at the other side of Donald Trump's conspiracy theories.

Like, welcome to the party, sir.

Yeah, it, it really is crazy, and it's wild to see him stuck in it, and he really, really is stuck because conspiracy theories need a what's next and they keep giving (laughs) a what's next.

So right now what's next is that, you know, Todd Blanche is meeting with Jizelle, or, or Ghislaine Maxwell, and so like now the conspiracy theories are in another stage, and some people are saying that, you know, Ghislaine is actually a victim, weirdly.

So, and I think that's like sort of, um, related to the January 6th, we don't believe in any law enforcement.

We think everything, all institutions are corrupt, so maybe-

Yeah.

Right.

You know, after this, after the initial memo came out, all the influencers were likeTurning Point USA was having their, uh, their summit, so they were sort of inundated with, like, actual people that they had to see to their face and had to answer for it.

And you could, like, really truly see in a way that I've never seen before, like, the fear in Charlie Kirk's eyes during that summit.

[laughs] He was just like, "Uh, so tell me why you are mad," and really, like, gave people the mic for a long moment.

Same thing with Bannon.

Bannon was trying to, like, whip up a frenzy there, but then after that moment, after they let them air their grievances, you know, I talk with many of these people.

And so back home, as it were, they were kind of hoping that, like, phew, now onto the next thing, 'cause it's always been onto the next thing.

We're safe then.

Is that the strategy here?

Well, it definitely seems that way.

At least, he's, that's the way that he's presenting it in his Truth Social posts.

You know, he ticked off a list of the cases that he has come on the right side of.

You know, he said, "I have sued ABC, I have sued CBS, I have sued the Pulitzers and I will sue, you know, uh, Wall Street Journal and I am here for you." And, and so it's really important in terms of media manipulation, I think Trump's being pretty savvy here.

He had a really, really big problem with the MAGA Epstein files and the way that that was handled.

You saw the things-

Yeah.

(laughs)

(laughs)Um, so my first reaction was, you know, I have read a lot of weird things on the internet and, um, a lot of...

You know, I've read through QDROPS and all the QAnon lore, and some of the stuff that they picked up from the WikiLeaks documents were, like, innocuous emails about, you know, getting lunch or, you know, "Let's go to a pizza place," or, you know, really, really just random things that conspiracy theorists took and just pulled apart and created a whole sort of separate world and created, like, a whole nother language to fit their conspiracy theory into.

Now, I'm not a conspiracy theorist and this letter, you know, frankly, uh, it's weird.

I don't know how else to, to put it.

This, this play is just very, very strange, and so my first reaction was the conspiracy theorists are gonna eat this alive.

This is gonna be catnip to them.

That's not gonna matter to the conspiracy theorists, but it matters to me as someone who's trying to get to the truth.

Mm-hmm.

... a well-worn conspiracy theory made for the modern age.

And with Jeffrey Epstein, you had a really bad guy who was really doing some of this stuff.

All of the evidence we've seen that Julie documented so well in her reporting, in her book, points to really bad guy does really bad things, and yet we have not seen any other evidence for the large cabal of people he was supposedly, you know, engineering or who he was controlling with this sort of list.

There's no clients that we've seen.

We just haven't seen that evidence.

And so, what happened when they rode the coattails, Pam Bondi and, uh, Kash Patel and Dan Bongino, et cetera, when they were riding this wave of conspiracy for so, so, so, so long, now they are in the halls of power.

(laughs)