And I think that's, at least for me, when I taught any intermediate learners, finding that sweet spot was where I struggled a lot of like, how do you move them forward without it being too much?

I think that it has to be this willingness on our part as the jurors or the adults in the room, we're talking about younger learners or even just the high school learners, that we can tolerate the ambiguity or the uncertainty of how something's going to go.

And I think that's hard for us in our American system where it is kind of controlled and we feel a lot of pressure to meet deadlines and to get to the end of things and that we... often unintentionally more concerned about getting to the end of the lesson than we are about how students are engaging with the content.

So one of those things is to let there be that space where kids are thinking and really engaging with a concept.

I like to use the phenomenon piece that's come out with the next gen science standards, where the students engage with something that's interesting about the world that they, like something about the world that they're in.

And it's the space for kids just to be curious about it.

Instead of what they're going to be learning, how it's going to go, but this curiosity space.

And yet when you hear this story, I think you're going to understand why I want to hear it again, because I feel like, well, you tell the story and then I'll say what I want to say.