Right, right, right.

And what I find really fascinating is that there's also this kind of correlation that I found in my books that, you know, as you go from, you know, these periods of time where all of a sudden there's all of this verbal handing down, and then you enter into this period of time where there's this kind of scarcity across the world, you know, this in particular across the United States for 20 years or so.

Then all of a sudden when we get into the mid-century period, we have that boom of the, the industrial revolution and, and, you know, we have this accessibility to all these other, you know, amenities that make our life more convenient for us.

This is where you start to find the, those, those things coming together, where you have these dishes that are so absurd and the recipes do not work because people did not understand how to cook.

Like, why were they so trendy, I guess, at that time?

You know, I mean, from, from my research and just kind of, you know, trying to, trying to [laughs] piece together the, the scattered bits of history, you know, that we can actually find about this, one of the things that I came to realize is that there was a huge lobbying push, uh, to introduce new and kind of exotic fruits and vegetables and things like this, especially from around the Caribbean.

And so, uh, from the '30s, uh, up until, you know, I mean, I mean obviously up until even still today, but, like, '30s to the '60s in particular there was a massive hard push to really b- you know, bring in, um, a massive import of, like, pineapple, you know, from Dole.

Um, you know, B- Big Banana was pushing really hard as well.

It might have more to do with, uh, are you adaptable under pressure? Can you just make it happen?

Yeah.

And it's like, the thing for me actually is that it's like, you know, if, if, uh, if there's anybody out there that's actually like trying to scout, you know, and trying to, to look to mentor, which you guys should, you know.

It's like mentorship is the entire point, you know, of working in this industry.

I got my start because I had a mentor.

But, like I personally think that those are the things that you could easily do in your own kitchens.

Like when I worked at Soho House, you know, Chef Paul, like he would occasionally, like maybe once a quarter or something, put together his own little version of like an Iron Chef challenge for all the chefs that wanted to do it, all the cooks.

... or similar, uh, what advice do you have to them so they could prepare?

30s to 40s,

people are fucking up.

Yeah, and it's like, what I kind of figured out one day was just like, why? Why do we have stupid dishes in the mid-century? That was like the thought process.

And as I backed up, I realized, Well, you know, it's like post-World War I, we recovered, but then we go into 29 into 30, where it's the Great Depression.

And for the first time in a major, major, major way, we are entering this world of scarcity, where it's not only just economic instability where people can't afford it, but people are just not able to maintain the businesses and the structures.

So we're all of a sudden not getting enough food, and we're also not able to afford the food.

And that goes on, and all of a sudden, you know, it's like you have another generation coming up later on with World War II, where all of a sudden, again, more scarcity.

my chicken pot pie? Maybe.

What, what are some of the biggest lessons that you took from that experience?

You know, one of the most important things that, that I, I try to encourage and, and talk about often is, is You know, one, the element of just, uh, tenacity, just kinda understanding that, like, not everything is going to be, you know, a, a great day.

Not every day is gonna be fun and all these things.

It, it, there, there's a learning experience that comes fr- by pushing yourself to a place of discomfort, you know, and at the same time, doing it with an intention.

I, I personally think that more and more people also are kind of afraid of the idea of, of failing in some way, and so more often than not these days, people are a little too afraid to even take the chance at something because they don't wanna make themselves feel like they're a failure.

And the, the thing that I try to explain is that it's like failure is the most necessary thing for growth.

I can't tell you how many things I've done in my life that I've completely just either, you know, been horrible at or gave up, you know, at, at a certain point.

Mm-hmm

Can you describe that a little bit for our listeners?

Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a thread between the two that I think is often misunderstood.

You can have something that is novel, and it's just flashed in the pan, and it might be something that is interesting or cool or you might even own and appreciate, but there is a real power there.

to nostalgia and, and kind of what I mean by this is this entire experiment that I did with retro recipes, kitchen, you know, it started off.

And again, this came, this all comes from like these overly cerebral moments of just reflection, but it came during COVID.

when I was locked in an apartment and I couldn't do anything and I was feeling incredibly helpless and hopeless and down and just like feelings I've never really felt before because I've always had a community around me and the things that I kept coming back to almost every day in some capacity, whether it was a big day or a small moment, was finding something that tied me back, made me feel comfortable and safe.

And oftentimes that could come down to food.

But what's a recipe that maybe not very few people are familiar with that you think we really ought to try?

I know we're maybe going back to picket fences, but you see where I'm coming from here.

No, and I absolutely agree with that kind of sentiment, you know, and it's just one of those things where at the end of the day, it's like, you know, we come back to these and I just think that it's one of those things where it's like, you know, if we can give it a kind of 2.0, a little brush up and just kind of.

you know, an oil change here and there for some of these things, then all of a sudden, these dishes that might be mocked at and looked at silly, you know, all of a sudden have like a new sense of life again.

And, you know, to be fair, as well as a lot of the dishes actually in the book, I do give credit to kind of like origins of where they come from, because, you know, the United States, it's very difficult for a lot of people to really wrap their head around.

But I mean, the United States really is so enormous that it's it's it's it's hard for people, even the States to wrap their head around.

And I think that's what makes it so difficult for people even in, in the United States to actually understand like how diverse our food culture is.

You know, I have a recipe in the book called the country captain, and that's actually a dish that was kind of created around the, the kind of colonizing period of time in the English for, you know, doing the spice trade, you know, with India and they were, the transatlantic slave trade and the caribbeans and all this all of these influences and touches brought this food to the united states on the east coast and this became one of these kind of quiet sleepers that you know like when people knew about it it was incredible you know and i think that that heritage that that that connection to just the world in particular is what makes these dishes so unique because Hot dish is something that we have where it's basically a casserole, tater tots on top, and we can laugh at that.

So is that hopefully what you're trying to do with with the retro recipes?