Yeah.

And for me, the, the bigger question is: how can you create something much better on the, on the income side, on the employment side, whether you are conventionally employed or you're self-employed? And that's a big focus of the book, and I researched, um, not just ab- abstractly or theoretically.

I interviewed a bunch of people for this book who are living this dirt bag rich lifestyle, some of whom are conventionally employed.

They work for healthcare systems, or they work for public schools, or they work for some big companies, and others who are more what you would consider radical entrepreneurs, who really have direct control over their time and work and their deliverables and their flexibility.

I think that's the more interesting and important part to focus on, 'cause although the subtitle of the book is "High Freedom, Low Income, Deep Purpose," the low income part is a little bit duplicitous, because what I really advocate for is finding a way to make a good amount of money in a short period of time, and then just to not work full-time, to work something closer to half-time or maybe 15 hours a week averaged over the year, which is what the famous economist John Maynard Keynes said we would all be doing by the year 2030, 'cause we'd all be so much richer, and we are richer, but we're not doing that.

So I do think it can be a challenge to accumulate assets, but this is all relative to the standards and the expectations that you set for yourself, and if you're just looking around at your peer group and looking at how much they spend and how big their houses are and what their cars look like and the kind of vacations they take and the kind of meals they eat, then yeah, yeah, I would say it's very hard to accumulate wealth in modern day North America if you're trying to live that way and you're not willing to ignore a large amount of that and make some trade-offs.

I try to be really clear in the book about the trade-offs that you're going to make in terms of wealth accumulation, in terms of relationships and community, and in terms of what your friends and family might think of you.

Um, what, what are some other creative solutions that some of your, your guests have pursued?

Mm-hmm.

I think for younger listeners, might not be on the radar.

A wonderful cult classic movie, and s- he wakes up every day in this loop that he can't get out of.

He has to eventually learn to change his behavior and the way he treats people in order to escape this infinite loop of, of Groundhog Day.

And, and for me, what I was running away from, what took me to South America, was any semblance of feeling like I'm in a loop, and that could even happen when I was doing a really cool job that I thought was, like, a different kind of job.

So for example, I loved snowboarding growing up, and I thought, "I wanna become a snowboard teacher, snowboard instructor." I got hired to do that at Heavenly Ski Resort in South Lake Tahoe.

They put me in the adult ski school instead of the, the kids' ski school, which was not my preference.

What was the reaction of your parents or any siblings that you might have?

Yes.

He got, he got kind of famous in 1930 for predicting that, uh, about 100 years later in rich countries like the United Kingdom, where he was from, that everyone would be so materially prosperous that they'd only be working 15 hours a week to cover the basics.

And people today, economists today, have gone back to fact-check his prediction.

He was actually pretty spot on when he said how much richer we're going to become.

We're actually even more financially wealthy than, uh, he predicted, yet clearly most of us do not work 15-hour workweeks.

Most of us are still doing 40 hours or more.

And so I think that we have to reframe wealth, and this is why in the book I talk about time, money, and purpose.

Take us through your, your background, wh- where you grew up, what kinds of activities you were involved in, and h- and how in the world did you get involved in the outdoor adventure cult?