people to hear about, and you've all the way through, haven't

you? Yeah, well, when I was working in the wood, I worked with a man called Bill Hogarth, who was the last of the coppice workers.

He was based around, well, South Lakes, Furness area.

I worked with him on birch woods at Force Forge.

and various other places and when my dad Walter moved up from Lancashire where he'd been farming with a horse-drawn living wagon and started off running Project Phoenix which was the charcoal project he met up with Bill Hogarth and they worked together quite a bit and my dad lived in the woods he lived in a wagon or in a tent in the woods for the last 20 years of his life more or less And when Bill Hogarth died, it was realised that he had very unique skills, and he was the last of the coppice workers, really.

He was producing lots of small products.

birch besoms, he produced hazel hurdles, he produced oak for oak bark tanning, he used oak for rustic peeled oak poles, many small products, tent pegs, all sorts of small things and in fact one of the first things that we did at the Woodmanship Trust and Walter was involved with this was we did a six-month trial in a coppice producing as many products as we possibly could and then doing a time and motion of how long it took to produce those products and what the market value of them was.

But do you not think that some of the conventional ways of farming are highly dependent on exactly that problem of subsidies and high input costs? And that will also go too.