So how do you help them think about the goals or tease out the goals and then think out the ways to get to those goals?

Well, you know, you asked the question before, I think.

Also, another bit about the measurement and trying to be, I wouldn't even say convincing, but how about credible? I'd rather be credible than convincing sometimes because when you're in with the CFO and some others, credibility matters.

But I think another thing we try to do is to have those hard conversations early.

and to surface all the assumptions and your kind of your framework for how you put those models together and that that helps to bring everybody into the conversation and put all the objections on the table early and you can work through them but points are our hot topic today do points work do they matter should we not have points programs anymore and people ask about that all the time i think that's a little bit of what you're asking about is what if a brand wants to do something different And I think, you know, points are a mechanic.

They're a mechanic that works often, but it's not the complete answer.

So I think it goes back to objectives.

okay and then the wise marketer um there's the loyalty academy so how did that become a thing