And Justice Breyer's opinion, um, bought that analogy between what we can expect people to navigate on their own, at least with the help of a judge asking some basic questions.

But yeah, so then Stefanos reaches out to me, and I had previously written an article called Against Civil Gideon.

And if you know this area of access to justice or poverty law, there weren't very many people who were lining up behind me against Civil Gideon.

Uh, but I was like, uh, that's my actual belief.

That was my belief then.

It's my belief now.

Um, and basically, as far as I'm concerned, the-- you want to start with the first premise, which is that Gideon itself hasn't been super awesome in criminal law.

I think it's a matter of designing a system around using AI to walk people through what we expect rather than expecting that they will just perform like conventional lawyers.

Right

... 'cause after I cross the line, I have no idea if I've won, you know? Um, but I, I just, like, um, you know, after the other guys finished, I just, I saw my brother-in-laws screaming their heads off in the stands.

I'm like, "I, I think I won 'cause they probably wouldn't be doing that if I lost."

[laughs]

So that's, that's how I knew.

You're flying in, flying out on different schedules.

Yeah.

I, I mean, the first few days were really rough, just, like, with the patchy sleep and whatnot, but my wife, Clara, she's been really supportive.

Um, and she's been taking the, the baby for most of the load so I can perform better, um, and so I really appreciate her for that.

You're used to being alone [laughs].

Yeah, yeah, I'm used to being alone, so, and, uh, I, I think they really appreciated the, the fact that I was able to be there, and that was only because of Clara.

Um, yesterday they, they came over and it was super nice, the 4x4, they brought flowers over for Clara, and they, they got her a gift card, and, uh, she really appreciated that.

You're flying in, flying out on different schedules.

Yeah.

I mean, the first few days were really rough, just, like, with the patchy sleep and whatnot, but my wife, Claire, she's been really supportive.

Um, and she's been taking the, the baby for most of the load so I can perform better, um, and so I really appreciate her for that.

[laughs]

Yeah, yeah.

I'm used to being alone, so, and, uh, I, I think they really appreciated the, the fact that I was able to be there, and that was only because of Clara.

Um, yesterday, they, they came over, and it was super nice.