But, I mean, is this a team, is this a game that we could have all the way through fourth quarter? That's what I'm asking.

I think this is going to be a close game.

I think it's going to be a game in the fourth quarter.

I think it's going to be a kind of low-scoring game.

I think it could look a lot like the game Michigan played against Indiana a couple years ago.

Remember when they went into Bloomington? We were just starting to figure out that Indiana was really good.

Michigan had struggled for most of the season, and that was the game where they kind of put it together, and we realized, okay, this team's actually not too bad, and then they beat Ohio State a couple weeks later.

What were those specific characteristics?

Was this kind of forced on him, you think, or, or what? What's your f- read into that?

Well, it, it's always tricky when you have, um, a coach with a quarterback that he has inherited.

I mean, now- nowadays, the way this works in college football when a head coach gets hired, what's the first thing he does? He goes in the portal, and he either brings the quarterback from his previous school, I mean, that happens everywhere, or he handpicks a guy to bring in and be his quarterback.

And it, it's frankly kind of unusual now in, in this day and age for a new head coach to come in and inherit a quarterback as his starter.

Especially a quarterback like Bryce Underwood, who showed some flashes as a freshman, but certainly was not established as a top-tier starting quarterback in the Big Ten.

So I, I think both sides were hopeful that this was gonna be a fit.

Uh, I think Kyle Whittingham probably looked at it and said, "Hey, I don't know if we can go get a quarterback who's more talented than Bryce Underwood," at, at the time that Kyle Whittingham came in.

Is this kind of like the, the, the, the fair warning for the NIL market right now when it comes to particularly this position of be careful where you're spending your money because quarterback is very difficult to play, it's very hard to evaluate what a high school quarterback is going to do at this level where everybody is the best athlete from their high school, and you don't wanna throw a bunch of money around, and it kind of feels like this is just the sum of all fears for everybody who donates?

Is 24 too much? Should it have just been cut down to maybe 16, or should it stay that 12? I just want to get your general thoughts on the expansion.

I thought my colleague at The Athletic, Stuart Mandell, summed it up.

very well um nobody wants this fans don't want it um well i shouldn't say obviously somebody wants it because they're doing it but we don't really know who it is that wants it right like the tv networks like they're gonna do it it's not like it's not like the tv networks are putting a bunch of money into it it really does seem like this is this is the the the coaches and the athletic directors who are feeling this constant pressure from their fan bases and their donors to deliver return on investment for the money that's getting put into these rosters.

I mean, Michigan is a great example of it this year.

Michigan's roster is making approximately $40 million.

If Michigan goes six and six or seven and five, there's a lot of people who will be looking at that and saying $40 million for that? not a lot of people are going to be happy with that, you know? And so what the, what the expanded playoff does, it means that if we had a 2014 playoff this year, Michigan would absolutely not be eliminated.

Michigan would be looking at the rest of its schedule and saying, Hey, we're right in the middle of this thing, right? We're three and two.

So your thoughts for those that may be looking ahead to the action over at Chrysler Center this year.

What is your interpretation of this?

Well, it definitely requires some translation.

I think the way I interpret it is that the technology that conferences have access to now for this instant replay has really progressed to the point that some conferences like the Big Ten have technology that allows them to be even more precise about than what people see on TV but what this memo was clarifying is what the Mac said in its letter is that the the protocol is actually to use what people have access to on TV even if you have access to something more precise because not everybody has access to that a lot of smaller conferences other conferences don't have access to this technology that the Big Ten has that allows them to get extremely precise and granular on that replay.

And so for uniformity, I think this memo was clarifying, let's use the technology that everybody has access to so the protocol is the same in all cases and it's not different depending on what technology you have access to.

Do you think it I mean, is there some precedent for, you know, a team that maybe just was the victim of a horrible call getting consideration in terms of their their season record and what bowl games they end up going to?

Well, especially now that we have a 12-team college football playoff, and one of those 12 spots goes to a team like Western Michigan from one of the so-called group of six conferences, the smaller conferences that participate in this larger structure of the college football playoff.

So there's one team on the level of Western Michigan that is going to get a spot alongside all the big teams in this playoff.

And based on what we saw from Western Michigan in that game, as competitive as they were with Michigan...

I know that they've settled, but there could be some other guys that, I mean, if they get healthy enough— I mean, that could still make their way into the offensive line, right?

Well, yeah.

Talking about that defensive front, I mean, the coaches have been saying all along that they felt like the defensive line was the strength of this defense, which I think maybe caught some people by surprise because on paper you weren't really sure.

But, I mean, I think Trey Pierce – For this defense to be really good, I think Trey Pierce needs to be one of the best defensive linemen in the Big Ten, and I think he has that potential.

I think Michigan sees him that way, that he's one of the best defensive linemen in the Big Ten.

They need Enoeta to really take a leap, really have the breakout season that I think people at Michigan have been waiting for from him.

Jonah Lea from Utah, I think there's a feeling that you know, he's really changed his body and that he's going to be able to step in there and hold up against the big offensive lines of the Big Ten.

2014 playoffs, that's what I'm talking about.

How, I don't know, miscalculated or poorly executed, what was it like following that coaching search and then seeing Michigan eventually fall into what might have been the perfect guy and the best guy for the job?

Yeah, it was such a chaotic time at Michigan with everything that happened with Trone Moore.

I mean, that took up so much of the oxygen.

The coaching search almost felt like it was a sidebar to everything that was happening with Trone Moore and the legal process.

I remember that period of time when it seemed like Michigan was really looking hard at either Kalen DeBoer or Kenny Dillingham.

And it felt like the search might go one of those two directions.

And then it became clear that both of those doors were closed.

What's real about where he is right now and how they feel about his

And here he is, maybe, you know, calling his own shots in the manner of his departure.

I think the timing of Ward Manuel's departure speaks to the complexity of this whole situation.

I think a lot of Michigan fans wondered if Why didn't this happen sooner? When all of the information came out in December about Sharon Moore, his firing, and later his arrest.

A lot of Michigan fans felt like Ward-Manuel's time had come at Michigan, but he remained in his job.

Michigan commissioned this external investigation to gather facts about the Sharon Moore situation and the broader culture of the athletic department.

And then after receiving those findings, Michigan had a decision to make about Ward-Manuel But I think this was a negotiation.

Ward-Manuel also had leverage in this situation.

I wonder if the next person to field this job is going to have to have a different skill set than what Ward Manuel brought to it.

Uh, w- was last year, uh, a disappointment in some ways, and why do you think that was?

Well, I think the disappointment was just we didn't see the trajectory from Bryce Underwood playing his best football at the end of the year.

Uh, th- he had some really nice moments.

He had some, some nice games.

He had some, some throws that made you say like, "Yeah, this is why this guy was the number one prospect in his class." But he kinda plateaued toward the end of the season.

Uh, it may be partly that Michigan played some, some good defenses at the end of the year, including Ohio State, but I think the performance against Ohio State is the one that sticks in everyone's mind.

Uh, I think he threw for 63 yards, didn't get Michigan in the end zone.

If that is the case, Austin, is there a clearer definif- definition anywhere of lack of institutional control?

If that is the case, Austin, is there a clearer definific- definition anywhere of lack of institutional control?

Uh, that was a very explosive allegation in Chris Partridge's lawsuit that Michigan was aware of the sign-stealing operation and, and did its own investigation.

Or, I, I think the allegation is that they had somebody else investigate it and were briefed on the findings but didn't have anything written down.

I, I, I read that in the lawsuit and, you know, I, I took it with a, a fairly large grain of salt based on the fact that anybody can say anything in a lawsuit.

Uh, and often it's, it's calculated for maximum exposure.

And, you know, I, I don't know the factual basis behind that.

I don't know how...

Uh, don't let the door hit you in the ass"?

Do you think that kind of mobility is something that this generation of leaders welcome for themselves?

And I think one of the ironies of this whole situation is that Dusty May was maybe the most effective coach in college basketball at navigating this new environment of NIL and the transfer portal, Michigan's national championship team.

Happened in large part because Dusty May made the right moves in the transfer portal, brought in these players, Mores Johnson, Yaxel Lindeborg, Adai Mara from other programs.

He identified these players, brought them to Michigan and built this team that ended up having one of the most dominant seasons in Big Ten history.

But it does take a toll, and I think it took a toll on Dusty May.

I think he recognized that the challenge of doing that year in and year out, of rebuilding your roster, retaining your players, finding the money to be competitive in the transfer portal, that's a grind.

It's just a completely different challenge than the NBA lifestyle.

But can you maybe remind us of what remains of the team that we saw go all the way last year? Is there enough left of Michigan to build around?