Do you feel that way or do you see it differently? How do you approach that?

I think there's probably two ways to look at this.

And I'll give you the more contrarian one first, which is the UI is not going to matter in six months.

The same way that none of us really interface with... anthropics UI.

We go in through a terminal or we go in through a little web app on the computer.

What we're really dealing with is the death of the UI because the agents are going to be able to navigate these systems.

Do I really care if I'm trading on Interactive Broker or Robinhood or LMAX? I just care about getting the best price I can and the best execution I can.

I guess, Austin, the question there, and I kind of ask a lot of people this, Is that the worst version of what we had hoped for as crypto guys who wanted to invest in these tokens and see our thing and build another financial system and we end up just being the plumbing for the existing financial system and our tokens don't go up?

Yeah.

Like, never.

Like, Robinhood is completely free.

Hyperliquid is completely free.

Yeah, you pay a hundredth of a penny in a gas fee to trade on it, but really what happens behind the hood is there are market makers that are making, you know, a 10th of a basis point on every trade, and also providing you a better price than you would get normally.

And so that...

Like, you benefit from, um, Double Zero data even if you're not consuming it yourself.

Um, you were telling me that you thought that a lot of these activities are gonna be like, like broker-deal Broker-dealer activities, and that there, there could be liability, uh, in this.

Tell us what our listeners need to know.

Yeah, certainly.

So this has been a long expansion of kind of one of the visions of the 00 network.

So at its core, this is a blockchain protocol that runs a large global permissionless fiber network that's really designed to accelerate all types of new finance systems and really anything anyone wants to build on it.

above what's possible on the public internet.

And every large company in the world runs on private dedicated networks.

They don't really run on the public internet.

uh what are your general thoughts on uh the current state of these new age marketplaces and um you know is it a sign of the times and and do you think it is a little bit of a threat in the future to centralize exchanges and what they offer people

Give us the long and short of it.

Yeah, certainly.

So what we're doing with Kaoshi and Kaoshi Research is basically enabling users to subscribe to every single event contract and every single state change with full market depth delivered over 00 and multicast.

And there's a lot of words to kind of unpack there.

But at its core, what this is is a much faster way to receive a complete view of all of the data of what's going on on Kaoshi event contracts, including liquidity depth.

So this is called L2 data in the financial world.

And what this really provides is a few different things.

Because as you were saying, Orphe, it's very interesting to move away from the crypto use case that you imagined when you founded DoubleZero to what kind of primitives are now being built on top of that infrastructure.

But why do you think it took so long to bring this infrastructure over to crypto?

There's kind of two or three different reasons for this.

So primarily, this infrastructure is very hard to build, and it's actually, like, a skill set that is not common among Web2 engineers.

Web2 and the cloud revolution was incredible for social media, web apps, Uber, DoorDash, the types of things we use on our phone every day, Slack.

But financial infrastructure operates in a very different way.

If you go to the data centers that the New York Stock Exchange runs in, it looks nothing like the type of environment that, you know, Facebook is hosted on, or your average web- uh, Web2 application is.

And so there's a real technology and skills gap.

I would love to just, like, zoom out a little bit and, and hear how you're thinking about prediction markets and how they're gonna continue to evolve, um, uh, like I said at the beginning of this interview, to bring us into that next era of financial markets.

But why do you think it took so long to bring this infrastructure over to crypto?

There's kind of two or three different reasons for this.

So primarily, this infrastructure's very hard to build, and it's actually, like, a skill set that is not common among Web2 engineers.

Web2 and the cloud revolution was incredible for social media, web apps, Uber, DoorDash, the types of things we use on our phone every day, Slack.

But financial infrastructure operates in a very different way.

If you go to the data centers that the New York Stock Exchange runs in, it looks nothing like the type of environment that, you know, Facebook is hosted on or your average web, uh, Web2 application is.

And so there's a real technology and skills gap.

I would love to just like zoom out a little bit and, and hear how you're thinking about prediction markets and how they're gonna continue to evolve, um, uh, like I said at the beginning of this interview, to bring us into that next era of financial markets.

But let, let I, I think I'm even seeing it in the comments, like ask, ask him about, you know, agents, how this is gonna impact AI agents, and I guess how broadly this will sort of impact, you know, with the new tools that are coming.

Yeah.

So I would say, uh, f- first off, like, we've done a lot of work to make the 00 network very accessible and programmable by agents.

And so you can think about this as, like, downstream of, of one of these main goals of ours.

So one of the things that is unfortunately true today is connectivity is actually an incredibly opaque and locked-up market.

You would think that there's, like, a website I can go to and just buy private data transport from point A to point B. There's not.

It takes three to six months to get these circuits provisioned.

I know we only got a couple more minutes, but how do you now just generally view, uh, the layer one battles, and the layer o- later layer two battles, and how things are likely to, to shake out? Because it seems like that's a never-ending, uh, narrative.

At what point did you realize that the bottleneck wasn't really so much software as it was the physical infrastructure?

Yeah.

There's still a lot of work to be done in software, just to, to be clear.

It's not that we're done building software, but the major limiting factor has shifted from, like, what's possible in software.

Like, if you ran, you know, Geth locally on your computer in 2020, like, you were not getting that thing over 400 transactions per second.

And but now what we see is, like, in testnets, in laboratory environments, we see most major modern blockchains being able to push significantly higher throughput numbers than they actually can in prod, which is weird.

You should ask yourself, like, "Why are the testnets so much more performant than the actual public layer one and layer two blockchains?" And a lot of that has to do with infrastructure limitations, and the actual speed of fiber and connectivity between these systems is not the only limiting factor.

One is determinability of communications, and the second is determinability of landing transactions.

Like, why does anyone actually need this? So

Solana's super, super slow compared to TradFi.

Yeah.

Like it is 400 millisecond block times is like unfathomably slow.

Now it's super fast for crypto, but it's pretty slow for TradFi.

And that's kind of where the delta comes from here.

It's the same way that if like you are trading on a market on a blockchain that is 30 second block times and you're trading at Solana, Solana is going to run laps around you.

100%.

Mm-hmm.

... and basically rebuilding these on decentralized rails, not just for the point of decentralization but so you have greater choice from a consumer standpoint, the network and connectivity layer really is, uh, in my view, the first piece of that that we need to tackle.

And it's in some ways the most broken piece of it today.

The internet is an incredible resource.

It connects us all, it serves data, uh, in far-flung regions of the world, but it was never built for high performance systems.

And so Wall Street does not use the public internet.

Facebook does not really use the public internet.

We'll often talk to them on their IPO day and we'll talk about the different processes around the roadshows, but on the digital asset side, launching a network like this, what are kind of the key steps leading up to this moment? And congratulations, by the way.

Can you touch on the market dynamics for why high performance fiber networks have not permeated to being used by everyone? Why everyone doesn't have access to them? How has that existed to date? And how does that inform where internet systems are high performance, less performance? How has that shaped that?

So we're very used to talking about network effect systems when we think about anything in blockchain or Web2.

High performance private networking is an anti-network effect business.

If I am jump trading and I have a high performance link from Chicago to New York, I don't want Citadel or DRW on that link.

I actually want to keep it just for myself.

It's a competitive advantage.

Exactly.

The final question I wanted to ask you, what do you look at the end state of this segment of the market being? Do you think that we have a host of call it luxury fiber networks that the applications that really need them or those that are willing to pay can pay for? Do you think we have this slow public internet, which still powers most of what we use? Where do you think we end up? This may

But how does it all work?

Yeah.

So 99.9%.

99% of the world's internet traffic moves through fiber.

It doesn't move through satellites or microwave towers or anything like that.

Fiber is still the gold standard in terms of capacity, reliability, and cost.

There's nothing today that competes with it even remotely.

So where are these people?

So let's kind of just jump in to Double Zero and what it's about and what made you start it.

Yeah, certainly.

So double zero is set out to sort of solve what I think we'd call like a fundamental problem facing blockchain today.

But it's not a problem most people are aware of.

So at its core, what we're doing at double zero is building a new Internet.

But that doesn't mean exactly what you think it means.

So most people, when you say, oh, we're building a new Internet, they're like, oh, you're going to like rebuild Facebook and Google.

And so you're changing that.