What do Bath need to do to make that leap to go on further?

First and foremost, I think the reason why the Champions Cup i- is so big i- in that city is that obviously Bath are a very traditional rugby club.

Um, and when, you know, in the professional era, they haven't been as successful as they were previously.

So a lot of the comparisons are drawn between the good old days of, you know, Jeremy Guscott, Mike Catt, and those guys a- and currently the professional era where there hasn't been, until obviously last season, too much success.

Um, and in that period, they obviously, you know, beat Brive in the final of what was then the European Cup.

Um, so a lot of comparisons are drawn between those two teams.

And therefore, the kind of icing on the cake for a Bath side and for the Bath locals would be to, to win, um, a, a European or, uh, the Investec Champions Cup now.

And Saracens probably are, are to, to go far in this tournament from a English point of view.

... your day when you went to that school [laughs]

I got, I got some, I got some stuff wrong.

I got some stuff wrong.

But actually it was, uh, it was when Dylan Hartley was captain.

We both, we, we were both young at the time.

Um, I think you had probably had one or two caps at this stage.

But anyway, all the guys who had under 10 caps had to get up in front of everyone and say a bit about themselves or whatever.

I'm ready to do this." Um, so yeah, it's still early days, but there's no doubt, I believe his, his impact will be significant.

Will those guys be leading the two best teams in the world to the World Cup, or will they revert back to experience with Handre Pollard and Richie Mo'unga?

Uh, we gotta see how they go in this series first.

I'll be honest with you, I think I was pretty impressed by Ruben Love and how he took to international rugby at 10, um, in the Nations Series just been.

I thought he looked control, controlled, and I thought he unlocked a part of, of New Zealand's attack that we haven't seen for, for a few years, if I'm honest.

Um, you know, whether that's Dave Rennie's effect or whether that's Ruben Love, it, we, you know, it's hard to say right now, but I've gotta give credit where credit's due and say that he, he took to it very well.

And they're both similar players, you know, i, in a lot of regards, Sacha and, and Ruben.

They're both a little bit, um, [tsks] loose is the wrong word, but they've both got the ability to break a game up, um, on their own, i.e. with footwork, with, um, you know, breaking the defense.

But for me, the ability to be a running threat as a 10, I feel like Sacha's taken that again to another level, along with Jalibert.

[laughs]

[laughs] But I think that he's one, he's another one of those players who does so much unseen and, you know, has such a high standard as well of non-highlight reel moments that people really take for granted his influence on a game, both from carry, both from tackle, both from line-out.

He's always there.

Um, and I think that that consistency says a lot to the quality of a player, not dropping below a, a, a certain standard.

Also, if we wanna talk about, I know it's a team game, but if you wanna talk about success, 'cause we're talking about two leaders here-

J- uh, just to clarify, that is from the Champions Cup last year and the top 14.

Yeah.

Doesn't make much difference.

Yeah?

It's, yeah, New Zea- especially the way they attacked in, in the Nations Championship just been, um, it allowed him to, to roam a little bit more and touch the ball not just on his wing.

But at the same time, even if a system allows you to do that, you still have to be in the right place, and that's an area of his game that is unmatched by anyone in the world, and that is to be in the right place at the right time.

And it's not something that is actually, in my opinion, that coachable.

It's like a, it's like a striker, you know, knowing where to be at the back post or the front post or whatever.

It's a feel thing, and he just seems to have got it, you know, like Chris Ashton, but probably on steroids to be able to, to finish tries the way he's done.

And obviously, mate, he's got freakish natural ability, otherwise, you know, he wouldn't be able to do some of the stuff he's done.

... it's criminal, but you can't do anything.

Big Michael Cheika

I think that, you know what? I'm trying to take my bias aside because he, like I've said it numerous times, he was amazing to me and to us, and we saw it firsthand how good he is at coaching.

I think anyone who can go from coaching international rugby, but not just at Australia, I think that there's a lot of merit that has to be shown to a coach who can coach across hemispheres, nations, languages, and also codes.

Like, him going to NRL now is no mean feat.

Like, that takes a, a very innovative coach to be able to go a- a- and transfer their skills to, albeit a similar sport, but it's different.

You know? So I think that you've got to give credit where credit's due, which is why I would say I could definitely afford for him to be lower in this list, and we'll make allowances where, where they need to be made.

Um, at eight I'm gonna go Andy Farrell.

Oh, yeah?

... right now

I think you, I think the p- the point that hit home there with what you said was his influence on games compared to the other 12s seems like it's always at a greater level.

Maybe that's because of who's around him potentially compared to a Damian de Allende, um, or a Jordie Barrett.

Do you know what I mean? Like, he probably do- there's not as much stardust in the back line for Scotland as there is for a South Africa or a, um, or a New Zealand.

But even saying that, I think when Scotland play well, 10 and 12 are flying.

Um, and I think that Sione obviously has a significant amount to do with that.

So I d- I think we can make room for him in the top 10.

So Matthieu Jalibert I think right now is, is, is hot property.

Um, I think just behind that you have sort of your Scotlands and your Irelands, and I think actually then behind that you have your, your Englands, your Argentinians, uh, Argentina, uh, Australia, and sort of the, the rest.

I don't think I'm sold on the competition completely yet.

I agree with your points.

Free-to-air I think is amazing.

Um, having those Saturdays that are full of rugby I think is brilliant for, for the fans.

Um, I think there need, there, there needs to be a little bit more explaining done on, on why certain games are played in certain locations.

Um, as obviously I'm, we're not players anymore, so it's easy for us to sit here and not complain about the travel.

That is what, you look at the competition as a whole and what do you want? You want to generate more revenue, and you want to help these other nations, and that, for me, is a massive success story, the fact that they have generated a huge amount of revenue that hopefully can be reinvested into, into Fijian rugby and help.

... absolutely shocking, mate.

Yeah.

Let me play devil's advocate for a bit.

I think the antics on pitch towards players or the little niggle between players, I actually don't mind because I think that, you know, Argentina are playing England in England, and obviously we can talk about all context before, you know, the World Cup semifinal, the faults, all that.

Um, but I think that that made the game a lit- h- h- had, it forced the game to have a little bit more edge than it otherwise would, right? It's the last game of the Nations series.

The boys are, England boys are tired.

Like, it just forced that little bit more edge in the game that I thought was a good thing, and like I said, drama in sport is huge.

But that's a tough gig to deal with out there.

... because it felt like a free swing.

Yeah.

Well, I completely agree.

I think from an Exeter standpoint, I think a lot hinges, in my opinion, I might be biased, like I'm a massive fan of this player, but I think a lot of their success hinges on Manny Fairoboaro's availability.

I think him being available in the playoff, you want a game breaker who can make something happen out of nothing, and that type of player is, is worth his weight in gold in games like this.

Um, let alone, obviously he's experienced now.

He's played for England.

We've seen some huge blowouts, and the attacking rugby on show has been as good as I've ever seen.

Lovely.

For me, this has got...

The wingers pick themselves.

Much like the centres, the wingers absolutely pick themselves.

Kyle Steyn of Scotland has been unbelievable.

Beating defenders, scoring tries, grafting, getting up in the air, as we've seen.

I think he's been Scotland's best winger, which is... which is a debatable statement with how well Darcy Graham has performed.

world's best call of duty player we've seen his aerial prowess his try scoring for Italy his work rate around the field I think he's been a real breakthrough for Italy so there's the four names we've given you Tone please pick a winner

shit.

He's soon going to be top Premiership tri-scorer ever, so we'll leave it at that, shall we? Yeah, I just think it's too soon.

I think that whilst the signings they've made are brilliant for the club and for the North East in general, I still think they're probably three, four world-class signings away from properly competing.

And I think that in key positions like 10, I think their front row probably needs...

Pakoli might be better to talk on that, but...

I think they still need bolstering.

And then on top of that, you need to get a full, I guess, a long-term coaching succession plan and all that in place.

like there was the whistleblowers documentary that went out and Luke Pearce spoke really well on that just saying that rugby is a game where you as a referee have to kind of pick and choose what laws to apply to what extents and I think that's a really just valid way of looking at it I think there was an interview that Ben O'Keefe did recently where he said he like looks over every decision and he only gives it he only blows his whistle if he's 100% sure so he has like the highest accuracy rate And obviously what people will then say back to that is, oh, can we not hold them accountable? And it's like, well, of course we can hold them accountable because there are people, there are experts, there are referee assessors who do that for them all the time.

Is it naivety? Is it just getting the timing wrong? What leads to that situation?

Yeah, I don't think you can look at any one of them in isolation.

Ultimately, you know, he put himself in the situation of the second one by, you know, getting a yellow card early doors.

But I think the first yellow was a bit harsh.

You know, I think, yes, it was a line break from Scotland and he was coming around, but I think the ball was just squirted out.

I'm not sure it was a straight up yellow card, but, you know, ultimately these refs have to make decisions in very quick and high pressure scenarios.

The second one and probably the most obvious one was, yeah, it's 100% a yellow card in terms of the decision-making process that goes behind that.

Yeah.

What is it, though? What is it about this team at the moment?

Yeah, do you know what? I think that unlike previous years, I think that England have got strength and depth across a variety of positions.

And I think that that's, to be honest with you, that's massive credit to Steve for being able to bring those guys in, give them opportunities instead of, you know, sometimes it's easy to just select guys who have been there and done it.

But he's actually gone off and, you know, watched guys week in, week out for their clubs and selected a lot of guys on form.

And that's given them their opportunity.

And now they're, They're, you know, sort of established internationals.

But I think when you look at two position groups in particular, if you look across the back row and the back three, particularly the wingers, I think that England have probably got the best depth in the world across those positions.

I mean, what is that atmosphere like when you know you've got thousands of Welsh fans in there alongside the passionate English fans? Just paint us a picture of the occasion of running out into that.

What is it, though? What is it about this team at the moment?

Yeah, do you know what? I think that unlike previous years, I think that England have got strength and depth across a variety of positions.

And I think that that's, to be honest with you, that's massive credit to Steve for being able to bring those guys in, give them opportunities instead of, you know, sometimes it's easy to just select guys who have been there and done it.

But he's actually gone off and, you know, watched guys week in, week out for their clubs and selected a lot of guys on form.

And that's given them their opportunity.

And now they're, they're sort of established internationals.

But I think when you look at two position groups in particular, if you look across the back row and the back three, particularly the wingers, I think that England have probably got the best depth in the world across those positions, honestly.

I mean, what is that atmosphere like when you know you've got thousands of Welsh fans in there alongside the passionate English fans? Just paint us a picture of the occasion of running out into that.

Who do we think? Who do we think that's going to be the centre partnership?

What I think and what I want are two very different things.

What I want is, I think that Oli Lawrence at 13 and Max Ojomo at 12.

I think that the club combination at centres when Max hasn't played a great deal of international rugby will be important and I think he definitely needs a run at 12.

Equally, I think that Oli...

Might not be in the absolute hottest of form for Bath, but I think where he left off prior to injury in the autumn was elite.

And I think he needs a good run at 13 where I think he can impose himself and really influence the game.

right because if they gel it does work then actually the threat is huge because the firepower they've got out wide and everything like that they've got the power but can they actually understand each other to a level of like you know get some momentum now I want it and now I can unleash and do that so it's going to be intriguing I've got to ask about Penno What's your

When you do your ACL, how long does it take you to feel back to 100% or back to your sort of athletic best?

Well, as with all of my injuries, Coley, it was an injury followed by an injury.

So I had my ACL and then I tore my calf and then fortunately enough for me, I had a pre-season after that.

Are your calves big enough to tear? No.

That's why they take a lot of strengthening up to be able to bear the weight of my upper body.

See how I've turned that around on itself? Yeah.

Yes, I do have the worst calves or did have the worst calves in the premiership.

But like, have you been part of a meeting like that? And if, what, tell the listeners and viewers what gets said in them time.

But what about from an English point of view? I mean, how important is a win over the All Blacks? How much of a signifier of success is that for English rugby? Or is it not at all?

No, it definitely is.

It definitely is.

Because, you know, like, realistically...

Twickenham, I wouldn't say it's full of absolute die-hard rugby fans.

Especially for the All Blacks game, you get anyone who's got any inkling about or any slight bit of knowledge about rugby wants to watch that game.

If there's one game they choose to watch, it's England versus New Zealand.

This guy's got swagger, eh?

But I guess when you look at what the All Blacks have done and the historical record between the two nations and all the history, and, you know, I put it to Izzy the other day that, you know, the England test match on a Northern Tour is always that test, isn't it? It comes with a lot of ferocity, a lot of meaning on both sides of the equation, and And again, we look at things from a New Zealand point of view, but what about from an English point of view? I mean, how important is a win over the All Blacks? How much of a signifier of success is that for English rugby? Or is it not at all?

No, it definitely is.

It definitely is.

Because, you know, like, realistically...

Twickenham, I wouldn't say it's full of absolute die-hard rugby fans.

Especially for the All Blacks game, you get anyone who's got any inkling about or any slight bit of knowledge about rugby wants to watch that game.

If there's one game they choose to watch, it's England versus New Zealand.

This guy's got swagger, eh?

yeah,

like let's, let's do this.

Anyway, as part of the rehab, I was four months in, and this is why I say about keeping the main thing the main thing.

I went to do a photo shoot, and it wasn't that I was doing anything untoward at the photo shoot, but when you've got a Uh, you know, you're rehabbing an injury and I'm four months into an Achilles rupture.

You probably should just make sure everything is 100% or as good as it can be.

And there's no risk whatsoever in what you're doing before you, you, you go out there.

Um, so I went to catch a ball standing still and I felt my Achilles rupture again, four months in, and I was like, that, that, that really might be it.

Are you able to give some of the guys listening just maybe a couple of tips on what you did under the high ball? Why you were so good under the high ball?

Why is Marcus Smith playing at 15, do you think, mate?

I think there's a few reasons mate and I know that there's a lot of fans who are going to be either confused happy sad you know there's going to be all right all kinds of emotions evoked with with Marcus playing at fullback I think you know where I stand on this I've made that very clear I think that Marcus should get the 10 jersey should hold it down should be playing there week in week out but I can somewhat understand why this game you'd want to play him at fullback to an extent.

I think that France do play a bit loose.

They can get loose with some of their offloads and stuff like that.

And that's where Marcus becomes electric.

I think historically, when I've been involved against teams that have played France, we've combated that by playing super structured.

But you know, sometimes having a player in a pivotal role like fullback, being able to ignite the game with a turnover and then resort to structure when the right time is to do that, is a really powerful weapon.

Two things, Len.