It's kind of like a you know, you can see everything mode where you're, where you're kind of taking the truth, but you're also bringing in a little bit of fiction to make it work.

I'm, you know, enamored with narrative storytelling, obviously.

And, you know, and so are you.

And we all are.

And that's, so there's always a new challenge with how do I tell this story in the best way possible for the reader? I mean, that's kind of always my thought, because how do you keep a reader engaged in the modern world with a 300-page book? Yeah.

And that is what the goal is for somebody like me.

It is to get someone to pick up the book and not put it down until they're done with it.

And

It's just not there.

A former assistant secretary of state told me it's a cross your fingers and hope approach.

How could you possibly think that is a good idea in the world in which we live? You must have verification situations.

And not only that, I learned something very interesting from a lot of the scientists involved is that it's not just having evidence.

diplomats or inspectors going over and looking at these WMD facilities as we used to have with nuclear.

But the scientists involved explained something to me that was so interesting and so hopeful, and I hope we can get back to.

And that's that when you have this kind of transparency, as an ideal, what ends up happening is the scientists from these, air quote, adversarial nations end up having a dialogue.

plague

But there are things this bug does that are designed in to undermine society.

Yes.

Well, let's start with the fact that the pathogen that I chose for the biological war scenario was plague.

And I did that in particular because plague has history.

You referenced to the history, including catapulting plague-ridden bodies over castle walls to cause everybody in the city to die.

And of course, the bubonic plague of the 14th century is killed 150 million people in Europe.

It's such an enormous number.

But The question here is, if so, how should governments react and shift defenses to combat the threat? That is a very important question.

Yeah.

So never mind just the people I interviewed in my book, and there are many, but the, the current State Department and former state departments going back multiple administrations assert that Russia has currently a biological weapons program that is illegal.

Biological weapons, as you say, are illegal.

And so that is a very significant statement.

There are only two countries that the State Department asserts currently have illegal weapons programs; Russia and North Korea.

China and Iran are on the list of concern, programs of concern, which you may or may not interpret as a euphemism for probably has a biological weapons program.

And so there's no question in the mind of the experts who are, who really look at this, you know, with a fine-tooth comb that, that there is a illegal biological weapons program going on in Russia.

Hmm.

Explain the, the parallels between your story and what we know.

Thanks for having me, Michael.

The parallels are remarkable.

I wrote a non-fiction book about a Pentagon type scenario whereby pneumonic plague that has been genetically modified escapes after an accident at a high containment facility, a BSL-4 lab in Siberia, Russia.

And of course, just last week, news breaks out of Siberia, Russia, that there has been a worker at a containment facility, a BSL-3 facility in Siberia, and that she has died of pneumonic plague.

Maybe we should feel good about that.

W- I think we should feel good about that.

It's been about seven days since the story was, or actually eight days since the story was reported.

But I would like to know what you know, and when should we become concerned? You know, what, what should we be looking for?

Yes.

Okay.

So if you just start with the basic facts of this story, last Friday I learned that there was a lab accident at a BSL-3.

That's a Biosafety Level 3.

That's a high containment facility in Siberia, and that a lab worker had died of pneumonic plague.

That's the story that was reported by local reporters on the ground there in Siberia.

Mm-hmm

I'm really not concerned about this [laughs] virus, um, and what's happening, but I would like to know what you know, and when should we become concerned? You know, what, what should we be looking for?

Yes.

Okay.

So if you just start with the basic facts of this story, last Friday I learned that there was a lab accident at a BSL3, that's a biosafety level three, that's a high containment facility, in Siberia, and that a lab worker had died of pneumonic plague.

That's the story that was reported by local reporters on the ground there in Siberia.

Um, very quickly thereafter, we learned that five hospitals were quarantined, that the leading public health official in Russia went to the area, and most importantly, that the FSB was involved in the quarantine.

FSB is the Federal Security Service inside Russia.

Um, are they? I mean, do, are you, do you have confidence that we are doing all that we are supposed to do to monitor, and, and are we ready at all if something is re-

It happens so quickly because the world is flat and people travel.

Yes.

So let's maybe get out a few facts first about pneumonic plague.

In Mother Nature's pneumonic plague, so in the wild, the Yersinia pestis bacteria, we know most people have heard of bubonic plague.

That's when it's transmitted by a flea bite and it attacks the buboes.

You get these giant bulbous necrotic swelling lymph nodes.

And if it progresses into the lungs, it becomes pneumonic plague.

If Annie Jacobsen were advising the White House, would you say pick up the phone and call him and ask what the hell is going on?

What is your read on the situation right now and what's the best way for Russia and other governments to help prevent this from becoming a larger crisis?

I mean, first of all, I don't think you can really take seriously anything that the Russian government says about any of this.

You know, they have really sort of vested interest in covering up what might actually be going on in that lab.

We don't know.

It's behind a six-foot wall.

There's Constantino wire.

On top of that, it's a controlled entry facility.

He has no business being in Congress.

Is there anything about the response itself, the quarantines, the medical observation, the involvement of Russia's top public health officials, that tell you something about what Russian authorities might be worried about?

Well, what they're worried about is that they're...

This is an anti-plague institute, so they're supposed to be studying medical countermeasures to plague, like vaccines, antibiotics.

But this particular institute, we know from Soviet defector scientists, was used for biological weapons engineering during their illegal program.

We also know the State Department believes that that illegal biological weapons program has continued.

And so what they're really worried about is eyes on this facility, both from the s- uh, intelligence community here in the United States and the military community looking at that facility and being like, "What is going on?" I mean, look, the facility is, has six-foot-high fences around it.

It's got concertina wire on top of that.

Is the pneumonic plague as transmissible as, say, COVID?

Is there anything about the response itself, the quarantines, the medical observation, the involvement of Russia's top public health officials, that tell you something about what Russian authorities might be worried about?

Well, what they're worried about is that they're, this is an anti-plague institute, so they're supposed to be studying medical countermeasures to plague, like vaccines, antibiotics.

But this particular institute, we know from Soviet defector scientists, was used for biological weapons engineering during their illegal program.

We also know the State Department believes that that illegal biological weapons program has continued.

And so what they're really worried about is eyes on this facility, both from the s- uh, intelligence community here in the United States and the military community, looking at that facility and being like, "What is going on?" I mean, look, the facility is, has six-foot-high fences around it.

It's got concertina wire on top of that.

It's controlled in and out.

Is the pneumonic plague as transmissible as, say, COVID?

Is there anything about the response itself, the quarantines, the medical observation, the involvement of Russia's top public health officials, that tell you something about what Russian authorities might be worried about?

Well, what they're worried about is that they're, this is an anti-plague institute, so they're supposed to be studying medical countermeasures to plague, like vaccines, antibiotics.

But this particular institute, we know from Soviet defector scientists, was used for biological weapons engineering during their illegal program.

We also know the State Department believes that that illegal biological weapons program has continued.

And so what they're really worried about is eyes on this facility, both from the s- uh, intelligence community here in the United States and the military community, looking at that facility and being like, "What is going on?" I mean, look, the facility is, has six-foot-high fences around it.

It's got concertina wire on top of that.

It's controlled in and out.

Is the pneumonic plague as transmissible as, say, COVID?

Is there anything about the response itself, the quarantines, the medical observation, the involvement of Russia's top public health officials that tell you something about what Russian authorities might be worried about?

Well, what they're worried about is that this is an anti-plague institute, so they're supposed to be studying medical countermeasures to plague, like vaccines, antibiotics.

But this particular institute, we know from Soviet defector scientists, was used for biological weapons engineering during their illegal program.

We also know the State Department believes that that illegal biological weapons program has continued.

And so what they're really worried about is eyes on this facility, both from the intelligence community here in the United States and the military community, looking at that facility and being like, what is going on? Look, the facility has six foot high fences around it.

It's got concertina wire on top of that.

It's controlled in and out.

Is the pneumonic plague as transmissible as, say, COVID?

Is there anything about the response itself, the quarantines, the medical observation, the involvement of Russia's top public health officials that tell you something about what Russian authorities might be worried about?

Well, what they're worried about is that this is an anti-plague institute, so they're supposed to be studying medical countermeasures to plague, like vaccines, antibiotics.

But this particular institute, we know from Soviet defector scientists, was used for biological weapons engineering during their illegal program.

We also know the State Department believes that that illegal biological weapons program has continued.

And so what they're really worried about is eyes on this facility, both from the intelligence community here in the United States and the military community, looking at that facility and being like, what is going on? Look, the facility has six foot high fences around it.

It's got concertina wire on top of that.

It's controlled in and out.

Is the pneumonic plague as transmissible as, say, COVID?

And, and if they do, what is that?

Well, that is precisely what I take readers through from th- the moment that a lab accident occurs, and in the book that I have just written, that occurs at a BSL-4 lab in Siberia in Russia.

The lab is called Vector.

It is a real lab.

It is where the Soviets built biological weapons during the Cold War.

A number of their scientists defected to the United States in the 1990s, giving us this information about what they were working on decades ago, ago before genetic modification had advanced to where it is now.

And I interview a number of the CIA and British intelligence handlers of those defectors and tell readers what was possible and what we know they did.

That makes total sense.

Tell us a little bit about what we know, the dangers, and then some of the Russian government's actions that tell us about how severe this is so far.

Well, the whole situation is completely unusual and bizarre.

The only thing that's not bizarre is that Russia is now denying everything, after initially having a very strong reaction to this reported pneumonic plague accident at a lab in Siberia, which the FSB was involved transporting citizens in ambulances to hospitals which are now quarantined.

So that is like a heavy hammer initial reaction, followed by complete denial, which I think that narrative makes it very troubling because really, look, the basic bottom line To be worried about is all of this, is pneumonic plague in the wild is extremely unusual.

Can you elaborate maybe a little bit on what that entails? What does that look like from a monitoring perspective?

When the book published, I was contacted by a number of current administration officials.

I'm talking military intelligence, diplomatic.

Um, even the, the director of the BSL4 lab at Fort Detrick, Dr. Bergman, invited me to come do a Q&A with his staff at that military...

Was that the joint operation with CIA and Mossad where they killed him with a car bomb?

Yes.

And it was – first of all, it was classified for a very long time.

Then the Washington Post reported the story, but they left out the CIA because they didn't know about it.

And the reason they didn't know about it is because it was pretty much just Billy.

I mean, I shouldn't say that because I'm sure now 10 people will come forward and say, no, no, no, it was me too.

But so let me rephrase that.

And I think you probably noticed this in your different books, but some people get squeamish at certain points.

But how about mirror life? What did you learn about mirroring?

Mirror life is a more complex concept that springs from genetic engineering into an area of science called synthetic biology.

And that is where you actually create new organisms.

So unlike Berg in 1971, taking two different existing organisms and mixing them through like, you can imagine old school film editing, You cut and then you paste and you tape and then you run it through the projector.

And then you imagine today things like CRISPR are more like, you know, video editing on your phone.

I'm sure your kids, I know my kids can do it in like four seconds because there's no tape, there's no scissors.

It's just this button and that button.

Yes,

weapon, what then needs to happen? What is the equivalent turnkey systems on the biological side? And I'm asking that in part because I'm trying to figure out where the governance will be most effective.

OK, so in 2008, An Al-Qaeda operative was captured in Afghanistan.

Her name is Aifa Siddiqui.

And she was an MIT-trained biologist.

She is now in a federal prison in Texas for 86 years.

Not reported before my book, and the information comes from the CIA's chief of the counterproliferation division, Jim Lawler.

Not reported until my book is the fact that on Siddiqui's possession, on a thumb drive, was plans for a biological weapon to mix rabies, with chickenpox.

And you say sensor technology, you're talking about physical sensors of certain types of pathogens that would be stationed in certain places or satellites or what are we talking about?

Can you just briefly explain the relationship between states and biological weapons, particularly Russia and the Soviet Union?

So once upon a time, like from post-World War II through the Cold War, biological weapons were considered legal.

The United States had a massive arsenal.

So did the UK.

So did Russia.

China was working on them.

A number of countries had them.

Can you just explain why the purpose of this and how that plays out?

Did they want the world to know this?

Well, this is a fascinating question.

And, you know, with nuclear, I found for the first time in my reporting career that that that statement you just made, like let's ring the bell kind of component of all this is actually very true.

And I found it even more so with bio.

And this has to do with the fact that science and technology are no doubt advancing far faster than the existing regulations that are in place.

That's true with nuclear because of like rising tensions with nuclear superpowers.

it's much more theoretical.

When you were game planning after, as part of the book, game planning, what happened to society afterwards? I mean, I don't want to say it was fun, but it must have been interesting to sort of take the real world events of COVID and just superimpose them on what could happen if it was a much more dangerous biological pathogen that escaped.

What can events from our past, like the bubonic plague, teach us about biological warfare and its potential impact today?

Well, I think what it can teach us is that a little bit of knowledge goes a really long way.

Like, for example, I've been on book tour around the country, and it's been, you know, both fascinating to discuss the terrifying aspects of this scenario, but also really heartening to talk with people who read the book who are like, wow, I learned all these things that I knew kind of on the But I didn't really register and I didn't understand the importance.

And so if you go with the fact that knowledge is both king and queen, that I do, you realize that knowing things like, for example, airborne pathogens are what are such pandemic potential pathogens.

COVID was airborne.

Ebola, this terrible outbreak in West Africa right now, not airborne.

Hence- not necessarily pandemic potential.

Does being at the center of biotech, you think, make us safer here, given that there's expertise here? Or does it present sort of a different kind of risk level for us?

Cats can't resist.

Here's my thought on that.

Um, I've just come off of a two-week book tour, so I was talking to people all over the United States, red states, blue states, small towns, big cities.

And often a question that I got was, "How do you write such dystopian narratives and maintain optimism?" Because I am an incredibly optimistic person.

Anyone who knows me knows I'm an optimist.

And I realized something on these, during these events, because I also pointed out that I am not a political person.

Anyone who reads my book knows they have no idea what my politics are.

Or is there things that people can be doing themselves?

What is the nightmare scenario here? Is it a pathogen with a long incubation time and therefore a pathogen that reaches a bunch of people before the first people that got the virus begin to die? What is the worst thing we could think of here?

And what you're asking me is precisely what I asked the subject matter experts that I interviewed over the course of several years to learn and also to decide what is kind of, you know, not the worst case scenario, mind you, but a worst case scenario.

That's what I wrote.

But let me preface this because I think listeners might benefit from like three basic concepts, which certainly helped me, which is that, you know, you have all kinds of pathogens.

pathogen being a virus or a bacteria.

COVID was a virus.

Anthrax is a bacteria.

How is this supposed to work? Because if a pathogen kills all the British and all the Americans, wouldn't it also kill all the Russians?

Right

... adding some kind of dark, nefarious component to an already existent species of a pathogen, that, like, you know, takes it into a whole new realm.

What you're talking about with euphoria was something that a USAMRIID doctor named Dr. Henry Hein...

So USAMRIID is the Defense Department's only BSL-4 lab.

It's in, at Fort Detrick in Maryland.

It's actually where we had a biological weapons program when it was still legal.

It's now where we don't have a biological weapons lab, where we have a lab that looks at dangerous pathogens, okay? So Hein, who was there for decades, explained to me what he learned about the Soviet chimera virus, never reported before, that, like, really had him up at night, and that was the insertion of a euphoria gene.

So according to your reporting, the people in charge of handing out the antibiotics in an outbreak, they're volunteers?