What did that background teach you that you now apply to your work in alumni engagement? Beautiful question.

I would say that the biggest part of classical music or musical theater or really any sort of theater is the ability, you're taking things in very small chunks over a period of time, knowing that it's going to build into something larger.

And you know that you are creating something that can't exist without the multiple pieces pulling it all together.

So it can't be effective in a silo.

And then when you're ready to bring guests into it, one of the key pieces is you don't want your guests to worry about you when you're up on stage, right? And you could be dropping lines.

There could be props missing.

Somebody missed a cue.

So Tell me more about that experience design day that you ran with your team and something really specific that you took from one of these consumer brands and put into an alumni program.

My question is, what does it look like to lead with that true of both and philosophy and what changes when an organization stops treating creativity and measurement as kind of opposing forces?

To start with, I think it makes sense for nonprofits and for foundations who are a lot of their success is their fiscal giving and those benchmarks.

I think it makes a lot of sense for those to be the things that drive a lot of conversations and priorities, because at the end of the day, that's what we're all here to do, right, to support a given cause.

And I think that there's a lot of time where leaders or just staff members in general can get caught in what worked last year.

Let's do that again because resources are tight.

Bandwidth is always something that people are talking about.

And you want to achieve as much success as possible with potentially as efficiently as possible.

Kind of give me your thoughts on what that unreasonable hospitality means to you and why it's important.