Is there some sort of fundamental flaw, do you think, with the mental health care system?

Yeah.

Well, one of the things I think is important is it really came to a head in end of December, beginning of January.

And didn't she admit herself or get admitted to a psych unit about the middle of January? Now, what happened there is people can do what's called evaluations and assessments, et cetera.

But the really important thing is the in my opinion, and I work with nursing because nursing has responsibility for patients around the clock, 24 hours, is to get them to keep a journal of what their thoughts are.

Now, they can do that, but that would be a real assignment that I never saw anything that they did there because I think, as Dr. G said, you can't get into someone's head, but you have to if you're going to in some way, understand if you're going to find out that they are not seeing reality as one should, so that the thoughts have to be determined.

Now, when you compare this, say, to a Yates case, where they were able to find out that she had this very, very bizarre type of thinking that our children were going to go to damnation and things like that.

Where do you see similarities and where do you see differences with Andrea Yates?

Um, is there some sort of fundamental flaw, do you think, with the mental health care system?

Yeah.

Well, one of the things I think is important is wasn't, i- it is, this really came to a head in end of December, beginning of January.

And didn't she, um, admit herself or get admitted to a psych unit about the middle of January? Now, what happened there is people can do what's called evaluations and assessments, et cetera.

But the really important thing is the, in my opinion, and I work with nursing, because nursing has responsibility for patients around the clock, 24 hours, is to get them to keep a journal of what their thoughts are.

Now, they can do that, uh, but they, that would be a real assignment that I don't, never saw anything that they, they did there.

Because you, I, I think as, uh, Dr. G said, you can't get into someone's head.

... with Andrea Yates?

in nature um those three things you know she she died shortly after the kidnapping they I mean it's like giving away you know if you're playing poker it's it's giving away your hand basically uh what is a perpetrator or perpetrators which is what we think why give such an important piece of information away if uh to John Kelly's point the first one is all about business and you want to get the money

Yeah, and what's interesting is that's the note that isn't released.

So that people, all of us thought that there was just this ransom note for the amount of money, and then it goes to Bitcoin and things like that.

So the second one, I find it interesting that it wasn't released, that it must have not been felt to be authentic, or that's the only reason that they had... release the first one but it does tell I think they're accurate that she died probably from heart with the way that her what we we know she didn't have her medicine everybody worried about that you know how would she survive also that makes answers that question the second one was that She would go back to nature, which I think is interesting.

I think we've discussed about how that can be just being buried in the sand or the desert or whatever is around there.

So whether she was buried on U.S. soil or whether she was taken to Mexico probably has more to do with how well they could hide it.

you know, where they were from.

Where do you stand on this guy? Was he an expert? Was he just a lucky, you know, one timer who got away with this?

They say that the death was not intentional, and literally then go on to say she was buried – in nature um those three things you know she she died shortly after the kidnapping they i mean it's like giving away you know if you're playing poker it's giving away your hand basically uh what is a perpetrator or perpetrators which is what we think why give such an important piece of information away if uh to john kelly's point the first one is all about business and you want to get the money

Yeah, and what's interesting is that's the note that isn't released.

So that people, all of us thought that there was just this ransom note for the amount of money, and then it goes to Bitcoin and things like that.

So the second one, I find it interesting that it wasn't released, that it must have not been felt to be authentic, or that's the only reason that they had... uh release the first one but it does tell i think they're accurate that uh she died probably from heart uh with the way that her what we we know she didn't have her medicine everybody worried about that you know how would she survive also that makes uh answers that question the second one was that um She would go back to nature, which I think is interesting.

I think we've discussed about how that can be just being buried in the sand or the desert or whatever is around there.

So whether she was buried on U.S. soil or whether she was taken to Mexico probably has more to do with how well they could hide it.

You know, where they were from.

Where do you stand on this guy? Was he an expert? Was he just a lucky, you know, one-timer who got away with this?

So thank you so much for your work and for being here, and please tell us a little bit about yourself.

Sure.

Um, I'm Anne Burgess, and I'm a professor of psychiatric mental health nursing at the Connell School of Nursing at, here in Boston at Boston College.

And I do, I teach, uh, several courses in forensics.

I teach a course in victimology, one in forensic science, one in forensic mental health, which of course is, is on the offender.

So we go from the victim to getting the evidence, and then to understanding or trying to the offender.

And I've been doing that since my original work back in the '70s with Linda Holmstrom, who was a sociologist at Boston College with me, came about the same time.

Can you talk a little bit about that?

So the way it's unfolded from day one has been unusual, hasn't it?

Right.

And, and the basic question is, who, who would benefit from a case like this? In other words, that gives you some clues.

You can't answer that.

Who would benefit from somebody where a f- 84-year-old person was, was missing? That's, um...

Something went very wrong.

Uh, I think the best that we know is something went so wrong in the, whatever the person who got in there and removed her.

Can you, if not profile this fellow, what, what are your thoughts about this guy? Is he acting alone? Is he, is he the mastermind?

W- how does victimology help law enforcement find perpetrators?

How does victimology help find, um, anyone, I think is the important thing, that that's who you have.

That's who you're looking for, especially at a homicide.

That's generally all you have is the victim.So, finding out why, who she is or he is, why they're there, all of that becomes very important and, and is the start of your investigation.

And I know that's essentially, if you listen to many crime shows, that's exactly what they do, is they start off with the victimology.

So I think we had help there because my work had always been with victims, from the rape study that I had initially done, and because people, especially law enforcement, did not know much about the victim.

You know, they're always, "Who did it?" And, "Let's just find the person, their investigation." Um, so I think we c- we tried to help law enforcement as well as other people with getting as much information on the victim as possible and, and start there.

What does that tell you, if anything, about the perpetrators?

How do these books get written together? Tell me about the process and the genesis of this relationship.

Well, we both are at Boston College, so that, that's, uh, uh, for starters.

We're, we both see each other quite a bit because our offices are just one floor apart.

Um, and for some reason we...

I think Mindhunter had just come out, and Steven was the one that said, "Why don't we see if we can get Douglas to come do a, you know, a conference or something here at BC?" So that started it.

And then I, I, uh, he can pick it up from here, but he started asking about some of my cases.

And he's the writer, so, um, I would just talk to him and he'd... [laughs] Uh, he was interested in the cases and said, "Maybe we should put some cases together," 'cause that's what the agents did.

Wow