You know, if that all stacks up, why would a provider tell a customer with more money saved that there's a better deal available compared to those with less money?

Yeah, I don't know if you've sort of found that one of the banks said that the £100 is the minimum where they tell you as well.

And I get it.

If you don't have much money in an account, it's not going to make much difference if you get an extra one or two or even 3% more.

You're talking about just a few quid.

But even at that five grand, you know, if you're moving from 1%.

to four percent that's an extra 150 over a year that is substantial that's not something to ignore so it is really strange that there is this discrepancy there um i think there's also another problem you get that when this message comes through from the banks i had one actually just today from lloyd's bank for an old account i'm not using anymore and it tells me that the rate is falling And it tells me I can get a better rate, but I have to go to a link.

And then you can just forget about it until four weeks later.

um so what do you do here what can people come and see you for okay so because i know you do you do a lot oh

yeah we do we do a range of things from not just surfing we do stand-up paddleboarding we do kayaking we do water safety courses we do safety cover for films and adverts that come down here and need to use the sea for advertising and they call on us to be to supervise the safety.

We go into schools and we bring surfing indoors.

We do a surfing programme.

I bet that's quite interesting.

We teach around about 180 to 200 kids in a day how to, yeah, to surf, how to use their core stability.

Yeah.

somebody who's never tried it?

Absolutely fascinated.

The answer is, I don't want to get too long, but the interview that went out 30, almost exactly 30 years ago, it went out on November the 20th, 1995, And it remains to this day and probably always will be the most momentous bit of television that the BBC has ever broadcast.

But it's vital to not even think of it as an interview.

It's not an interview.

It's a performance.

It's a double act.

It was a performance devised between Martin Bashir and Princess Diana, the two of them.

why? Clever because it's preventing the other story about the bungs that Charles is...

Is what Bashir did then, I mean, it's fraud, right? Isn't it? Could he go to prison?

Well, it's a very, very good question.

And I've talked to, you know, specialists, barristers specializing in forgery here.

Forgery, yeah, I mean, forgery is a clearly defined criminal offense.

You do 10 years.

10 years? Yeah, 10 years.

There is no time bar as well.

at the end of his career, really, that it's not, you know, we didn't get him at the right time.

literally an email, you know, got through

absolutely immediately.

Absolutely.

And in fact, I know that it did that because I was then able to get emails through Freedom of Information, which actually reveal information.

how my email to the BBC actually popped up on this woman's, in her inbox, whilst my documentary was on air.

So, you know, literally she and the head of news and the chief lawyer of the BBC, and the chief of staff to the director general, literally all sitting in their nice, comfortable living rooms, all watching the documentary.

My email then pops up in her inbox and she circulates it, etc., etc., which is quite amusing to see how that actually happened.

We're not going to take any action.

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A month after the Panorama interview goes out, Diana gets a letter from the Queen, the late Queen, saying, you've got to get divorced.

That was a month after the Panorama interview went out.

Now, the time span between the Panorama interview and Diana's death in Paris, in the Mercedes, in the Pont de l'Alma tunnel, it's a little under 18 months.

That's the time that she had.

And in the book, I put these questions to her brother, Charles Spence.

I put the question to Patrick Jefferson.

How did you come to expose that second piece or come to find that second, like the pieces and put it together?

See terms.

Martin Bashir's enormous, incredible skill was to get into the confidence of these people.

In the case of Diana, it was a two-stage process.

First, he had to get past her brother, Charles Spencer, who's worked with me really very, very closely in the writing of this book.

He had to get past Charles Spencer.

And Charles Spencer, of course, was a journalist.

He'd actually been a journalist longer than Bashir had been a journalist.

why? Clever because it's preventing the other story about the bungs that Charles is...

came as a consequence of the fame he got from Diana.

Certainly the meeting.

Yeah, he got in to meet Jacko as a result of his profile that he'd...

I mean, interesting point.

The two most famous people in the world in their day, Princess Diana, Michael Jackson, as I say in the book, both their lives would have been longer and happier had Martin Bashir not become their pal.

Wow.

It's as simple as that.

So I don't know what happened there necessarily that meant that he was going to get Jacko, and then Martin Bashir did, or Jackson didn't come out well from the Bashir documentary.

at the time at all about how, you know, as you say, how the hell did Bashir get this interview?

Yes, there were.

I mean, a few of the tabloids had got a bit of a whisper.

It's not entirely clear where from.

Well, maybe these are the kind of questions you could ask without really needing much of a whisper.

It was sort of had Bashir been made references to, you know, sort of dark forces and, you know, had that preyed upon Diana's mind? And that's the sort of stuff that I think, you know, if you're a tabloid reporter, you could sort of write that story without really needing much of a source.

Because, as I say, Diana knew, we all knew that her phone had well and truly been tapped, certainly on one very, very public occasion.

And how then, I mean, years later, I believe, how did you come to expose this?

Weinstein.

Yeah, then he might go down that road.

But yeah, his health became a very, very important issue during the time when this was coming out.

And it became very important.

And again, there's a whole chapter on this in the book.

Because what the BBC did... was, and I believe they did it for a very, very clear reason, but I've got to say to you, if you like, other versions of the truth are available.

The BBC will say, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Have they disclosed what illness? Well,

stuff as well wasn't it the child was it like a period thing that he said something like i want to be in

Well, that was it.

Yeah, exactly.

Well, that was a wholly separate tape.

But this was a conversation between Charles and Camilla and the...

What did he say? I'm so unfortunate.

I'm like a tampon that won't flash away.

Well,

Who was Martin Bashir for any maybe younger viewers? Okay.

Well, as somebody unkindly maybe said to me at some point, before the Diana interview, Martin Bashir wasn't a household name in his own household.

You know, he was at the bottom of the pile on the panorama scale.

reporters roster panorama again for you know forgive me people who don't know the most venerated current affairs show on the BBC I think it's started in 1953 something like that so it's very very old excuse me very venerated Martin Bashir was a very very junior reporter So for him to get the – it's difficult to sort of put the interview with Princess Diana quite where it should be.

It would be above Taylor Swift, above Kim Kardashian.

It would be above all – it was the most sought-after bit of media property in the whole wide world.

And chasing Diana at this time, 1995 the interview was done, chasing her for years before that was Oprah Winfrey, a younger Oprah Winfrey, Barbara Walters, who was the doyen of celebrity interviewers at the time, David Frost, you name it.

came as a consequence of the fame he got from Diana.

Please gamble responsibly.

Well, the head at the time, the director general, who was also importantly the editor-in-chief, taking all editorial responsibility, is a chap called John Burt, who's still very much with us.

He's in the House of Lords, Lord Burt.

So he is, if you like, and always really will be, has to be regarded as the captain of the Titanic when this particular ship went down.

I make the point in the book that I believe there are strong arguments for saying he wasn't only captain of the Titanic, he actually helped to fashion the iceberg as well.

Because the BBC had been configured in a particular way, its current affairs department, its news department, configured in a particular way under John Burt, under which this sort of behavior thrived.

But you said who was in charge.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

It's...

An interview suggests, you know, somebody sitting there, legitimately seeking information.

Wasn't that.

It was be- uh, because of the plan that Martin Bashir had come with.

It was effectively a performance, you know, a double act that poor old Princess Diana found herself taking part in and she didn't realize.

So yes, your, your summary quite right.

She did.