looked like a homeless person doing this but whatever

Yeah, I think, you know, community is why we do this.

Well, certainly in the work, one trust is the Stellenbosch Outdoor Sculpture Trust that we formed in 2012.

And it really is about the democratization of art.

It's bringing art to where people are, which is on the streets of Stellenbosch.

But the project that we did, the community-based project that we did that had the most impact that we could measure was what we called the Kickstart Program, because we realized when we started placing works on the street, the first one I did was for Dylan Lewis, and then after that we created the Trust, and annually we've done exhibitions every year.

But we were watching young people... to interact with the art on the streets.

I don't want to grow to a very big business and I don't think that's where my business should go, but how do I take it just one notch up so that it's not just working from home?