So talk to us a little bit about what you've seen in terms of the overall trend of how brands are investing in podcast advertising.

Yeah, that's a good question.

And I guess it differs slightly.

So my background's in Australia and the UK.

So I've got more exposure to those two markets than to the US.

But I guess from when I first got involved in podcasting, and it would pretty much always just be a line item as part of a kind of wider... audio by which might be broadcast radio plus digital audio so digital radio music streaming plus podcasts and people really wouldn't think in too much granularity about what they were buying the sort of shows and the sort of audiences where now we're working with different brands that actually have podcasts as a big part of their marketing strategy or their creative strategy and content strategy.

So I think there is a shift, but it very much depends on the brand.

So what have you noticed in terms of the difference between those two markets?

So you as a agency focused on podcasting, are these metrics now what your clients are asking for? Are you getting the, "Come on, give me better data," or are they just still happy with faith-based marketing? Yeah, 10,000 downloads, and we don't know if anyone heard the ad.

I wouldn't go as far as saying they're happy with faith-based marketing because any client that we work with, we're educating them in depth on how this all works.

So, you know, the download, as you said, it's not perfect, but it's been the best thing that we've had over the last few years.

I think everyone working in podcasting for the last, let's say, five years, we all want the most specific, relevant data.

And in an ideal world, yes, of course, we would have those kind of meta-level metrics where we can say, "This has been played for X time, and this ad has definitely been heard." But because of the fragmentation of the industry, it's just not possible.

And I think with AMP, again, of course, we all want what this is pushing for, but it relies on Apple, Spotify, and YouTube/Google coming together to share the information from their players, which ultimately this could've been done three years ago.

So I think it's a, a good thing that AMP is now more visible in the industry and possibly, like, the whole PR behind it might cause Google and Apple and Spotify to come together.

And by the way, we've aggregated all of that consumption data back, and here you go, Mr. Advertiser." And they go, "Wow, that is really truly unique, 'cause all I ever got before was this rubbish download number."