And, uh, would just like to get a sense of, um, your, uh, for lack of a better word, transition from that traditional practice into what you're doing now, and if you could just kinda explain what that shift was like for you, and if there was one moment where you realized you needed to shift, or if it was gradual or, or a combination of those, um, that would be great.

Yeah.

It's a...

Boy, it's a great question.

Um, and, you know, for people who are listening, it, it's, it's-- I, I practiced a-as a traditional lawyer for about 15 years before I figured out that I needed to stop.

And, um, I-- [chuckles] you know, when you ask the question, you know, when did you know? I-- you know, I knew, um, when I was, uh, uh, a, a third-year law student, and I remember asking one of my, um, alternative dispute resolution professors like: Boy, do you think there's any way to make a living, you know, as a lawyer that's, uh, not adversarial? You know, maybe in mediation or alternative dispute resolution? And she kinda looked at me and said, "Well, no." [chuckles] You know? And she said, "You know, it's, it's really impossible to create a, a, you know, a, a mediation practice right out of the box around here." And, and I was like, "Oh, man." And so I, I, I went into, to law practice.

And, um, I, I don't know that that's-- was necessarily true at the time or whether it's true now, but I, um, you know, I knew it.

[chuckles]