Hmm.

We were going through this to an extent in a trial and error way, the same way as everybody else.

Now, we got a pretty good grounding as we came up through the businesses that we'd worked in.

Matt's done his entire career at PennArts.

Caroline spent a little bit of time at another practice before coming to PennArts.

I'd been 10 years in different practices before coming to PennArts.

but it still lacked that formal business education and that sort of financial competence in that situation.

Yeah.