And as we begin to talk through this term, I'm curious if you could help us define it and maybe also define what it's not also.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, so this is the really, I'm so glad you asked that question and one that I really like to spend a little time on because we are hearing the term Christian nationalism used in the broader social discourse more and more.

And it was a term that was around even before we wrote Taking America Back for God in 2020. but not very broadly or widely by some journalists.

And then to that point, it hadn't been defined in a scholarly way.

There was no what we would call empirical data that was gathered to help really see what this was.

So when I define Christian nationalism, I like to just point out that this is a term that has empirical data and support backing it up.

And here's how.

Yeah.

So again, I preface everything with we're building off of a lot of different types of work.

But we look at it, um, quantitatively, and what we found is not only that there's an explicit connection between A strong view that the US, if you're to be a true American, you should be Christian, so the strong view of Christian nationalism.

Um, and then support for economic inequality, to essentially say that it is good and just that rich people essentially have better access to education and healthcare than those that are not wealthy.

Um, and so again, building off of what historians have looked at, qualitative scholars have looked at, we're able to, to tease out, well, here are the reasons why.

And essentially, um, not only is there a connection, but then when we look across income categories, and I think this is the real key interesting finding that I explore in, in that Substack piece and for Kettering, is that the strong effect of Christian nationalism is essentially localized in the higher ends of the economic distribution.

So meaning it's the richer Americans, that's where you see the really strong Christian nationalism effect.

Do you find that is more common, or are people more just kind of steeped in kind of right-wing economics and just kind of trying to find a way to kind of add that into their Christian nationalism?

Explain that to us.

Yeah.

So the key with defining Christian nationalism is, again, this desire to fuse together a very particular expression of Christianity with American civic life, and that the government at all levels should defend and preserve this fusion of a particular expression of Christianity with our national identity, our, our social policies, and social belonging.

And the reason that it's so important to identify and, and point to that particular expression of Christianity is, again, Christian nationalism is not just all religion and politics or even Christianity and politics, but its desire to elevate this particular expression.

And what we find is that this particular expression is not just historic orthodox Christian beliefs like the Trinity or the divinity of Jesus or sanctification or these other kind of theological terms that most Christians or all Christians would assent to.

It actually brings with it what we find this extra cultural baggage.

So when Americans who embrace Christian nationalism, when they see or hear the word Christian, they think about those historic Christian and orthodox beliefs, but it also activates and brings with it this other cultural baggage, things like, and we can unpack these individually if you'd like, this desire for traditionalist social hierarchy, um, or desire for strong ethno-racial boundaries around national identity, a, a comfort with authoritarian social control, a desire for very particular economic sphere and influence, and also a populism and a comfort with conspiratorial thinking.

What are the correlations there?

Andrew, d- define Christian nationalism for us and how it differs from Christian Zionism.

Well, Christian nationalism, as we study it across the American public, um, is an ideology that is committed to fusing a particularly conservative strain of Christianity with American civic life, and it demands that all levels of our government defend and preserve this fusion, uh, as central to our national identity in, in determining which Americans truly belong.

Um, and so while the goal of infusing, quote-unquote, "biblical principles" into American civic life may seem innocuous to some Christians, it does raise questions that are kind of being highlighted already here.

Um, which biblical principles? Um, whose biblical principles? Um, and it also excludes many Americans who are not Christian and those that are not religious at all, and so with this idea of loving Jesus, instilling biblical principles, um, it really is about elevating a particular expression of Christianity as central, um, and can chip away at this idea of a pluralistic democratic society.

Um, and so Christian nationalism and Christian Zionism are not one in the same, but they are strongly related, and so as we study this across the American public with, with many different surveys, we do see that many Americans who strongly embrace Christian nationalism, um, do talk about a support for the nation of Israel.

Um, but as kind of, uh...

Th- we also find, though, too, that when we ask about their support for Jewish people, um, it tends to wane, and so it really is about supporting this nation, and I think that's indicative of this idea of Christian Zionism.

Andrew, h- how much of a link do you see between Christian nationalism and this sort of violent rhetoric?

So turning to the subject of this series, the Weavers, would you say that their beliefs about things like the coming apocalypse, government betrayal, uh, these sort of things reflect strains of Christian nationalist thinking?

Yeah, I think that even more so in the present day we find strains of especially conspiratorial thinking really being present and rising up within the Christianity of Christian nationalism.

And so when we look at specific cases like the Weavers and the conspiratorial thinking that kind of undergirds a lot of what took place and, and they were all about, we do find Americans that embrace Christian nationalism do align with that.

So there are a number of studies that highlight folks that strongly embrace Christian nationalism are more likely to embrace various conspiratorial beliefs.... that the government is hiding something about, let's say, the JFK assassination or the moon landing.

But what we also find is that when we give folks a list of conspiratorial beliefs that they think the government might be hiding information about, and then we include a conspiratorial belief in that list that is made up by the researchers, so it's not something that anybody has heard of before, we find Americans who embrace Christian nationalism are also more likely to believe the government is hiding something about a conspiracy belief that is literally made up.

And so this highlights that as new conspiratorial beliefs come on the market, these folks are ready and willing to embrace that the government or, or elites are hiding something about this.

The susceptibility to suggestion where, you know, do we have evidence, let's say, that the 2020 ele- election was stolen? No, there is no evidence, but again, very open to the suggestion that there were improprieties or that there were voting machines that were being taken over.

So that's Christian nationalism as it's reflected in political rhetoric, but how is it reflected in political policy? What are some examples of Christian nationalist legislation you might see on local or national levels?