Where are these real numbers going to go? Or are they ducking it?

It's a really interesting point, Simon, because the planning till paper, I mean, if you approach it from, I'm approaching it from a professional perspective.

So, yes, I was at the reform conference and I'm off the Lib Dem conference this weekend and then Labour and then Conservative.

And that's my fun September time.

Punishment.

Punishment.

But going to them and having that dialogue, I think, to me, is an important part of that process.

But what's this one saying? I

But as far as making individual decisions is concerned, then clearly the balance of power lies with the boroughs or for those larger applications where the GLA wants to get involved and the mayor and the deputy mayor.

That's a really interesting observation that being at that slightly higher level and perhaps not being in a constituency AM means you are one step removed from perhaps the angst of lots of development happening in different areas.

You don't get that direct complaining, moaning, raising concerns from constituents.

Either as a cabinet, a borough councillor or a cabinet member or a constituency, because you're London-wide and you're able to take a slightly broader view and you don't have that, while you have a direct link to constituents, I'm not saying that, you don't have that direct, this is something that's happening down my road and you're my person and I'm going to moan at you about it.

So that's quite an interesting role because you are slightly divorced.

As you said, you're able to take a pragmatic, slightly broader view of development and how it may go.

And so what's happening? Well, that looks interesting over there.

If you get the wrong mix, that's your fault.

What does it look like from your point of

view? Okay.

Also, I'm going to start off by challenging to some extent, Hannah, what you just said, which is that there is a distinction between perhaps affordable and rented and private.

And I would argue that from a developer's perspective and certainly a partnership developer, that we should be looking at the whole thing at the same level.

And I know that's, you know, but I think that's a really important point to make because It also goes back to whoever the purchaser, and the purchaser may be the housing association and what they're trying to do, or the private rented sector, as well as an individual purchaser.

And you're sort of quite right there with your premise that if you're going along with a certain amount of money, what am I looking for? Am I looking for...

sort of all these wonderful things that people have been talking about or am I looking for the right number of bedrooms and the right amount of living space for my family that I need to do and it may well be that I have to max out on the number or the amount of money I have can only get me so many bedrooms in a certain place and therefore that has an impact because design in itself shouldn't be limited by you know the amount of money that we have in terms of developing schemes design either of the property or of the spaces in between.

you know boring there's not enough trees it's very bland it all looks the same isn't that something we also hear a lot kind of you know at the school gate which is just are they all look the same these new build developments what is driving that and I'm going to kind of maybe start with Andrew because you're you know you're in a sector which is doing a lot of new build in maybe some of these more suburban areas where people are complaining for better or worse about it do you think that's fair firstly do you think they've just not given them a chance and secondly what do you think is is affecting what's going on in the greenfield kind of development sector

And as you think about the development of young people and, a-and middle-aged people like you and I, w- why does adventure matter?

There's so many elements of adventure that address what we're talking about.

Entitlement, for example.

Mother Nature does-- is not for us or against us.

She will rain on us on our wedding day.

She does- she doesn't care.

And, and so when we live in this world where we can, especially now, fabricate or manufacture the right conditions, Mother Nature's there to be like, "I'm in charge." And, and, and like, "I don't care about your plans." And so I do think there's this natural, um, just this natural equalizer in terms of like us accepting the fact that we're not the center of the universe and we're not in charge of everything that we get from Mother Nature, one.

You know, as you're leading these, you know, adventures with some people that know each other and other people that are perfect strangers, w- what is there to, for us to learn about kind of that shared suffering or shared experience where, where Mother Nature can be pretty rough?

We should be funding local government better so that they have the resources to move these things through.

So you've both used two very emotive words.

So I think, Vicky, you talked about a catastrophic impact from a large scale development.

I suppose the challenge back, and also you, Sarah, you were talking about the lack of the local plan and therefore speculative development.

Now, some people don't like the word speculative development.

It's actually applications that are coming through the system to be considered speculative.

Because the council has failed in terms of delivering the local plan.

You just sit there and have nothing until we sort out your mayoral authority, which is heartbreaking for our area as Wessex.

between many of the boroughs in London and the London Mayor and also the government but now you know it's pretty clear if you're going to bring this forward a scheme in one of those authorities that's bringing the challenge um you know they're not going to receive an application very well that that is

and that's but just thinking about i mean obviously this a lot of this is politics a lot of this is the new leadership understanding getting you know thinking about something you know the delivery of affordable housing is really important you know the challenge obviously is that you know if you haven't if you're not delivering anything you're not delivering any affordable housing lead line market housing or any other type But the leaders of all the boroughs have got to weigh up the issues between sticking to rigidly hard principles of a policy formulation on the one hand, or thinking about their temporary accommodation need and temporary accommodation budget and impacts on people about living in temporary accommodation and the lack of accommodation.

And at some point, when do these...

Perhaps it's just a political churn to go through, that they've actually got to work through...

the realities of governing and certainly in some of these these councils where they're new in power and you're in post and they've actually got to work through those realities and Work out the hard choices, but

Doesn't it rather depend on how it's implemented and whether it is implemented fully and properly?

I think it really relies on a strong and independent chief planner.

who are able who now need some statutory protection who are able to make an independent decision and won't just be bowed by the chair of planning who comes in and says come on we've got to take this and it's in line with the plan but you know it has that pressure on them and as Mike said you know so what do they need any protection in relation to that but leaving that bit that question aside that tension between the two you that's an awful lot of pressure on because if that chief planner says no it doesn't go so there's an awful lot of pressure on that one person Or their delegated, you know, colleagues to stand up and be counted.