I know you'll try and use it for, to help your mates at Labor, but, you know.

No, no, no, 'cause I, I think, I think the government was doing the right thing, I think.

Um, and you know, and I think I know Chris Bishop reasonably well, and, and Simon Watts.

I think they were...

Uh, their objective was pretty clear.

They wanted s- some consolidation because there's some produc- productivity benefits for the country and all that when it comes to local government.

So it was just disappointing that having...

Could this actually proceed while the amalgamation talks are still on? And where, where, where are we at with that?

dollar fine exactly what you need in a city with no money

Certainly not, and it's highly unlikely they'll be fine at that level.

There's quite a bit of work to go through.

The charges haven't been laid.

Now that the lawyers of all sides will have to go through what can be proven or what they think we can prove or not prove.

There'll be talks between lawyers on all sides.

And I think if anything goes before a judge, then there'll be a bit of teasing out about... where responsibility actually lies, because I think that's still a bit of an open question when it comes to actual compensation.

I mean, you can't ping a single person or a time or a place or anything, can you?

I mean, you can't ping a single person or a time or a place or anything, can you?

Yeah, no, that's, and that, one of the critical issues in this will be causation.

What was the actual cause that, [clears throat] that led to the discharges that were against the consent, and so bit of a convoluted process to go through.

And the, and the fact that, um, Veolia doesn't seem to be in charge so far, so my experience in matters like this when you're defending a d- a, a defend- appearing for a defendant is judges think, um, a party is worth convicting, but there are others who are responsible but haven't been appeared in court, then that is a fact the judge-

How, in your experience, how long do you reckon this will run, and how big is the lawyer's bill?

[inhales] Um, yeah, um, the lawyer's bill will relate to how long the thing runs for, and if it, you know, if it goes to a defended hearing, then that could be very lengthy.

Uh, look, I, I don't know what the waiting times in Wellington District Court are at the moment.

Somebody told me they're on- they're not that long.

Well, just starting at the top, can we kind of go over what the initial project was that the NWTF funded and how did the NWTF funding help grow the project to answer more research questions?

So, yeah, Dr. Andrew Little here.

I'm an associate professor at the School of Natural Resources at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln.

So the project really was a part of a larger wild turkey project here in the state of Nebraska.

And I'll just briefly highlight that because that kind of sets the stage for some of the subsequent questions we can get into.

This project started a few years back, basically because of declines in turkey populations here in Nebraska.

And so we started a large-scale research study in western Nebraska.

Oh, you're,

Uh, what can the city do for that to be true or to maximize the chances of that happening?

I think, I, I think we can, knowing the needs of the sector is, is making Wellington attractive for the... you know, making it more affordable, making it so it's easy for folks, particularly, you know, young and mid-career folks to come here and live here.

Um, it's not just be about affordability, it's to make, making the city attractive and, and fun and that sort of stuff.

So, you know, working with the creative sector and others to make our, um, our, our arts offerings, our, the amazing- Landscape that we've got allows us to do things, you know, have amazing trails, mountain bike trails, and running trails, and, um, good sort of sporting opportunities, and making all sh- sure that all those things are available and accessible.

And we're a city that's built around this incredible harbor, um, and making that a kind of a centerpiece of attractiveness.

I think, look, we, you know, our bigger region, we're made up of at least sort of four cities, or four city councils.

We're in discussions at the moment about sort of coming together, and I think that gives us an opportunity to think about the, the region as a place to, um, to lo- to, to, to grow, to live, to, to nurture a business.

Why is it so hard? Again, who's, who's at fault here?

How do you turn up to work and be ordinary year after year?

I think because you get used to receiving reports to say this is wrong and that's wrong and nothing gets done about it.

And you turn up the next year, you get the same report, nothing gets done about it and you just accept it.

And I think that's what has happened at the officer level and at the elected representative level.

That's what's got to change.

I suspect that's not specific to Wellington either.

I suspect that that's around the country and that's what has to change in local government.

Is that the mechanism that breaks the mould and changes things materially or not?

How do you turn up to work and be ordinary year after year?

I think because you get used to receiving reports to say, this is wrong and that's wrong, and nothing gets done about it, and you turn up the next year, you get the same reports, nothing gets done about it, and you just accept it.

And I think that's what has happened at the officer level and at the elected representative level.

That's what's got to change.

And I suspect that's not specific to Wellington either.

I suspect that that's around the country, and that's what has to change in local government.

Do you reckon

Is that the mechanism that breaks the mould and changes things materially or not?

Is that true or false?

No, Nick.

People have said that, and you've said it too.

It is completely and utterly wrong.

Actually, let me finish, because this is a really important point, because there's a whole lot of people running around saying, oh, Wellington City Council could have delayed this for a year.

They couldn't.

So the decisions were made by our previous council and all the previous councils in Fahat City, Upper Hutt, Porirua.

There is a left-wing majority.

Do you, I mean, do you listening to what the minister says, is it, is it pie in the sky or is this totally achievable? And if they, if they cut the amount that you have to do and just make you focus on doing normal stuff, then we should be fine.

Well, he's it, uh, Simon's totally right to focus on the fact that rates increases in the last few years have, have gone ridiculously high, and we've seen that here in Wellington too.

We've managed to get a reasonable rates increase for this year.

But the reality is there are challenges for councils.

Um, uh, Simon says that they want to define, you know, the, the, the b- the core, uh, costs that council should incur, the core functions they should do.

But the nice to haves now includes or will include under that regime things, money that we spend on, for example, dealing with the homeless and the rough sleepers in Wellington City.

Um, that's causing a major problem for us.

So are you charging basically what it costs you for these at the moment, or are rates subsidizing some of these things, like dog registration or, uh, going to the swimming pool?

Do we have any idea what kind of increase we would see to fees and charges as, as a result of something like this?

Um, look, really hard to say 'cause, uh, look, fees and charges are, are, are a big component of, um, council review.

But, um, it's spread across a whole bunch of different things.

It could be your parking charges, could be, uh, your library book charges, all that sort of stuff.

It, uh, you know, so you can't sort of pick that.

But the really hard bit is gonna be things like for a city like Wellington where we have a big program to make ourselves climate resilience because, uh, resilient because we have a whole heap of slips and stuff or, um, potential slips that we have to shore up against.

Uh, the spending on that potentially falls, um, and that goes against, uh, an instruction we got from the government recently, which is, you know, make sure that you're climate resilient.

You're talking about juggling, you're talking about reprioritization, which I, I think is probably what the government wants, too.

now the government says this will mean fewer services council is able to provide and also it'll mean that your fees and your charges will go up do we have any idea what kind of increase we would see to fees and charges as a result of something like this

um really hard to say because uh like fees and charges are a component of um council review but um it's spread across a whole bunch of different things it could be your parking charges could be You know, every book charges, all that sort of stuff.

You know, so you can't take that.

But the really hard bit is going to be things like for a city like Wellington, where we have a big programme to make ourselves climate resilient because we have a whole heap of slips and stuff, potential slips that we have to shore up against.

The spending on that potentially falls down.

and that goes against an instruction we got from the government recently, which is make sure that you're climate resilient.

So it's going to require a lot of juggling to get this right.

You're talking about juggling, you're talking about reprioritisation, which I think is probably what the government wants too.

But if Upper Hutt go with Kapiti, I mean, could that be a possibility? I mean, where are we with that?

No, no, no, that wouldn't be.

You couldn't have individual sort of unitary authorities of individual councils.

That's not what the government set out in their criteria.

I think that's what Kapiti wanted that, but it didn't meet the criteria, and no other council in the Wellington region was prepared to support it.

Upper Hutt's position was just to say, we just don't want to be part of any of this, so leave us out of it.

But that doesn't stop other councils putting together a proposal that included them, and that's what happened in the end.

I mean, when I first heard by text last night, I was upset that I, I mean, imagine how you guys are

What, what would you prefer?

Well, we supported a, um, a region-wide unitary authority.

The, the Wellington Council, um, expressed a preference for a, a Wellington metro, but also supported a, a region-wide au- unitary authority.

My view is it makes sense for a whole bunch of reasons, efficiency reasons, coordinating transport, environmental management, that it is region-wide.

Um, but look, two of the three Wairarapa councils were pretty supportive of just a Wairarapa unitary authority.

It actually meets the government's criteria, their, their guidelines, so it actually makes sense for both proposals to go forward.

They're gonna be forced in, aren't they?

Well, that's what the rules say.

How's the planning going for that?

Yeah, so one of the things the ministers have said is we want to know what effective representation would look like by the bigger unitary authority.

And so we've looked at, we sort of operated on this principle of decisions that are region-wide being taken at that region-wide level.

So your big planning decisions and the common services and functions that councils have, like issuing your dog licences, your alcohol licence, all that sort of stuff, that can all be kind of centralised and systematised and what have you.

Then a different level for the more community-focused things like your community facilities, your swimming pools, even your streets, your local streets and roads, to have a level where decisions get made on those sorts of things by representatives who are close to those communities.

So that's the principle we've been trying to work to.

we've come up with this idea of community councils.

Could you see a system like that working or would the numbers of the population of each base have to determine how many people you'd have around the table?

How's the planning going for that?

Yeah, so one of the things the ministers have said is we want to know what effective representation would look like by the bigger unitary authority.

And so we've looked at, we sort of operated on this principle of decisions that are region-wide being taken at that region-wide level.

So your big planning decisions and the common services and functions that councils have, like issuing your dog licences, your alcohol licence, all that sort of stuff, that can all be kind of centralised and systematised and what have you.

Then a different level for the more community-focused things like your community facilities, your swimming pools, even your streets, your local streets and roads, to have a level where decisions get made on those sorts of things by representatives who are close to those communities.

So that's the principle we've been trying to work to.

we've come up with this idea of community councils.

Could you see a system like that working or would the numbers of the population of each base have to determine how many people you'd have around the table?

... and communications teams, they start saying, "Should my bill even be this high?"

Mm.

I think there's an int-interesting question 'cause we've certainly got the comments about the advertising spend, and yet efforts to communicate the existence of Te Ākiwai at separate billing clearly, um, haven't hit home.

Uh, so the way T-- Well, Te Ākiwai was set up because, um, this government, like the previous government, was very concerned about water infrastructure.

The reality is we've had decades of underinvestment.

We, we had the events in Havelock North however many years ago they were, 10 odd years ago.

Um, that was a bit of a wake-up call to water infrastructure and the quality of, of water supply, so things had to change.

... including oversight of where the pricing is and why?

You stay there.

No, I'm not saying that at all.

And the opposite is true.

That's why we've had a city safety team in place for the best part of a year.

The previous council set that up.

It works with the likes of Downtown City Ministry and the Wellington City Mission because a lot of these people, there's a reason why they're there.

Their lives have collapsed.

So my question there is why is it being turned over? Second question is with all the council rates and the water rates, what happens to the people who cannot afford?

Is it really that complicated?

Uh, well, there's a lot to do, and if you look at what's happened to Wellington over the last few years, we've had pretty much zero economic growth for, well, five or six years now, zero population growth for a slightly longer period.

Um, we've got our work cut out for us.

We do have some strength.

You know, beyond being a public service city, we do have some other strengths, and it's about drawing on those things and the people who've got experience and expertise in those areas to help us plan out some initiatives that we can take that'll start to make a difference.

... for, for what they may say to you?

Yeah, no, totally.

That's why we set up a group and, you know, I gave Karl Tiefenthaler, um, local businessman, the, the job of chairing the economic development group.

Is it really that complicated?

Well, there's a lot to do, and if you look at what's happened to Wellington over the last few years, we've had pretty much zero economic growth for, well, five or six years now, zero population growth for a slightly longer period.

We've got our work cut out for us.

We do have some strength, and beyond being a public service city, we do have some other strengths, and it's about drawing on those things and the people who've got experience and expertise in those areas to help us plan out some initiatives that we can take that'll start to make a difference.

Initiatives like what? Well, it's going to be up to them to come up with.

I mean, that's the whole reason we want them.

If the council had all the answers, we would have implemented them by now.

But is your problem not actually quite simple, which is that Wellington has become far too expensive a place for people to live, and it has become far too yuck in the central city for people to want to go out at night?

Is it really that complicated?

Uh, well, there's a lot to do, and if you look at what's happened to Wellington over the last few years, we've had pretty much zero economic growth for, well, five or six years now, zero population growth for a slightly longer period.

Um, we've got our work cut out for us.

We do have some strength.

Now, beyond being a public service city, we do have some other strengths, and it's about drawing on those things and the people who've got experience and expertise in those areas to help us plan out some initiatives that we can take that'll start to make a difference.

... for, for what they may say to you?

Yeah, no, totally.

That's why we set up a group and, you know, I gave Karl Tiefenbacher, um, local businessman, the, the job of chairing the economic development group.

Did you have a bit of work to do with councillors to get the vote done?

I think everybody genuinely had the same idea that the original proposal, as it was, just wasn't feasible anymore.

So it's what happens next.

And that was really what I've been focused on, is what is the next thing? Because it's not about doing nothing.

We still have to do stuff and we still need a roadway that means buses can move through efficiently and all that sort of stuff.

But most importantly, we need city streets, those critical areas, that entertainment district, which is what Courtney Place is, It really needs an uplift, and so we still need to focus on that.

And I want us to work with the people who live there and work there and have their businesses there to make sure we do that.

Was there any part of you that thought when you sat down and had a cup of tea afterwards on your own in your own office with no views, said to yourself, that was quite a major loss for our city long term?

Okay, what made the decision for you that you would not support it?

Well, when we got the information at the end of last year that it was going to cost $60 million more and that would fall entirely on the council because the $139 million was part funded by central government, part funded by us.

That told me, you know, for a council that desperately needs to get its spending under control, we had to look at it.

We did the review.

It said that actually some bits don't stack up, some bits might.

um but we we actually just can't afford another 60 million dollars and so i i am in support of us just um going back seeing what we can do and trying to get some savings at the same time we know we need to frankly, tart things up in a lot of Wellington streets, particularly Courtney Place.

That's a lantern key.

at

Okay, what made you ch- what, what, what made the decision for you that you would not support it?

Uh, well, when we got the information at the end of last year that it was gonna cost $60 million more, and that would fall entirely on the, the council, because the 139 was part funded by central government, part funded by us.

That told me, you know, for a council that desperately needs to get its spending under control, um, we had to look at it.

We did the review.

It said that actually some bits don't stack up, some bits might.

Um, but we act- we actually just can't afford another $60 million.

And so I, I, I am in support of us just, um, going back, seeing what we can do, and trying to get some savings at the same time.

Okay, so what are you likely to do instead?

What was your response?

I thought he raised some perfectly legitimate points.

I mean, he's not the first person to be raising that.

The point is about, you know, on Monday afternoon, I started getting the information that there was this system, the sea state that was heading towards, you know, the Cook Strait and to Wellington.

And by mid to late afternoon, the advice was that this was the swells were so great, it was bigger than what happened in 2020. and explicitly the estimate was that the damage, the potential damage that could be caused would be worse than in 2020.

So I had to weigh those things up and work out what is the appropriate course of action to take.

They did want evacuation.

We're making this up as we go along, right? What do you know now, which would mean next time you might do something differently?

What was your response?

I thought he raised some perfectly legitimate points.

I mean, he's not the first person to be raising that.

The point is about, you know, on Monday afternoon, I started getting the information that there was this system, the sea state that was heading towards, you know, the Cook Strait and to Wellington.

And by mid to late afternoon, the advice was that this was the swells were so great, it was bigger than what happened in 2020. and explicitly the estimate was that the damage, the potential damage that could be caused would be worse than in 2020.

So I had to weigh those things up and work out what is the appropriate course of action to take.

They did want evacuation.

We're making this up as we go along, right? What do you know now, which would mean next time you might do something differently?