But before we get to that, connected to the early days, like the first six months, how did you get into government and earn the trust of the, were you working with the PM from DayDot or did that role come afterwards?

I worked in Kevin Rudd's office from DayDot.

So I worked for Kevin Rudd, then I worked for Julia Gillard, and then I went back and worked for Kevin Rudd after that.

Many people did Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard and some people did Julia Gillard and Kevin Rudd, but no one did the three, if that makes any sense.

Although I wasn't there for the whole of the first period, which is important to kind of qualify.

How did I set myself up? To be honest, I think I knew from when I started that it would be difficult, that it would be challenging and it would be spiky.

And so what I was really always looking for was the great reason why you were there.

Tell me, how did Mandala form? What were you in that 2018-19 period? What were you seeing in the world? What were you reading? What were your career plans?

Like, how do you get from your first job to to where you are now? Because there's a

heck of a journey there.

I'd love to say it was all planned out in advance and everything proceeded exactly as I had hoped.

But, you know, like most careers, it's a combination of deliberate choices, but also a lot of good fortune and luck.

I remember my late father worked for Nestle for a very long time.

So as a kid growing up, that's the brand or house of brands, if you will, that I was exposed to.

And one of the things, even as a kid, that I got really into was marketing and specifically advertising.

right? Our

Where do you draw the line between AI as a helpful tool versus something that can actually transform a company's or a brand's marketing and maybe even to the point where it's something that's driving decision-making?

I think, Josh, my point of view is very much from a brand marketer, marketing standpoint.

So I can't speak to the engineering and the programming piece of things.

But I will say this, as a marketer, a lot of people are obviously using AI.

I saw a stat like 88% of marketers are not using AI.

or adopting AI.

But adoption does not mean trust, right? Adoption is you're using those tools, does not necessarily mean you're trusting those tools, does not necessarily mean you're comfortable using those tools to put things out into the marketplace.

When it comes to weaving AI and its use into the creative team or brand marketing team's workflow, where does it make sense to create stop points for human judgment to play a role? And what role should human judgment play overall in a workflow that includes AI to some degree?