Can you please briefly talk about what drew you into working with, uh, psychedelic, uh, in the field of psychedelic science, um, uh, and study of how you make meaning from those experiences?

Yeah.

So I've been ...

I mean, it's a long story, but I've been working at, um, this university, Naropa University, for 11 years, and we are what-- we, we call ourselves a Buddhist-inspired university.

We're not necessarily a conventional faith-based institution, but we take a lot of inspiration and teachings from various Buddhist traditions, and that's my academic background.

And so my background in Buddhist studies, um, particularly, and, and, and all, and I would say all kinds of different spiritual tradit- traditions and contemplative practices, I think has given me a sort of lens for what has been emerging in the last few years around psychedelic-assisted therapy, and that we ha- we, we've been exploring what that looks like at our university.

We're located in Colorado, so it's one of the few places in the country right now that, um, has l- legal ... has, I wanna say in, in brackets, legalized the use of psychedelics in certain ways for, um, for therapy.

But I, I'm cur- I'm curious, how do you differentiate meaning from the clinical outcomes? A lot of attention is on, like, the s- you know, how do people feel when their symptom changes, right? There's less about, you know, what, what are you taking away from this experience? I'm kinda curious how you kinda toggle back between those two, um, worlds.