I mean, what was your perspective of the church in the time, and then what did those historical experiences teach you about the strengths and even limitations of, of basically trying to remain neutral?

Yeah.

I, I think, you know, like everything, there's a moral good in neutrality.

There's a sense that the church wanted to move away from its medieval past where it took sides and where, you know, some popes led troops into battle and that sort of thing.

So it wants, from the 19th century onwards, popes see themselves as the successors of Christ, the Prince of Peace, and that therefore there's a vocation towards mediation and becoming a moral figure in bringing peace on the world.

The problem is that when you've got two sides arguing, they're not morally equal.

For instance, let's look at a current conflict.

And as someone who spends time investigating these uncomfortable chapters of history, what, what role do you think difficult history plays in strengthening rather than weakening an institution, uh, like the body of Christ, like Catholicism, and its understanding of itself? And maybe second to that is why is remembering painful truths sometimes the healthiest way of protecting our sanity [chuckles] versus these, I don't know, comforting narratives?

... of his attempted murder by an Islamist, and then how did he manage to forgive the gentleman and making reconciliations with, um, with Islam, with Judaism as well, and other related religions within all three l- all three?

three?Ali Agca shot John Paul II- Yeah ... is not helped by the fact that Agca has been alive and has written multiple books denying what he said in the previous books.

Mm-hmm.

He realizes that they always will sell, and he's never told us the truth.

Yes.

So on the part of it, you ...

Turkish movement called the Grey Wolves.

Yes.

And when did they accept that, no, the Italian state is here to stay?

It took a long time, as I say, if we're being very, very precise, 59 years.

Wow.

And ultimately, I think the 20th century for the Vatican was traumatic because it loses its two big supports.

monarchies and aristocracies.

After the First World War, they disappear, and the Vatican is desperately looking for new friends.

And it doesn't love democracy, too much debate, too much disagreement.

Can you tell us about that? Yeah, I

What was the church's role, s- such as it, it was, in the rise of fascism in Italy in 1920, 1922?

Um, I would say that it was a bystander, but a sympathetic bystander.

Benito Mussolini, the official founder of fascism, is from Emilia-Romagna, which is the reddest and most communist or socialist part of Italy.

He was known back in the day as a mangiapreti, an eater of priests, deeply anti-clerical.

And if you look at the manifesto founding, uh, I Fasci di Combattimento in 1919, the reduction of church influence and the confiscation of episcopal endowments and entails is part of the fascist manifesto.

And this means that by 1920, the fascists get 3,000 votes, and therefore Mussolini realizes he has to change direction.

And in 1921 to 1922, he begins to honor Catholicism and the monarchy.

Why did you have a less than positive view of the pontificates of Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI?

What was the Church's role, such as it was, in the rise of fascism in Italy in 1920-1922?

I would say that it was a bystander, but a sympathetic bystander.

Benito Mussolini, the official founder of fascism, is from Emilia-Romagna, which is the reddest and most communist or socialist part of Italy.

He was known back in the day as a mangia preti, an eater of priests, deeply anti-clerical.

And if you look at the manifesto founding i Fasci di Combattimento in 1919, the reduction of church influence and the confiscation of episcopal endowments and entails is part of the fascist manifesto.

And this means that by 1920, the fascists get 3,000 votes.

And therefore Mussolini realizes he has to change direction.

Why do you have a less than positive view of the pontificates of Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI?

What was the church's role, s- such as it, it was, in the rise of fascism in Italy in 1920, 1922?

Um, I would say that it was a bystander, but a sympathetic bystander.

Benito Mussolini, the official founder of fascism, is from Emilia-Romagna, which is the reddest and most communist or socialist part of Italy.

He was known back in the day as a mangiapreti, an eater of priests, deeply anti-clerical.

And if you look at the manifesto founding, uh, I Fasci di Combattimento in 1919, the reduction of church influence and the confiscation of episcopal endowments and entails is part of the fascist manifesto.

And this means that by 1920, the fascists get 3,000 votes, and therefore Mussolini realizes he has to change direction.

And in 1921 to 1922, he begins to honor Catholicism and the monarchy.

Why do you have a less than positive view of the pontificates of Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI?