Are there triggers that you can use to make someone join a program?

Yes, there are.

And we do an annual, we write an annual white paper based on data from a company called Brandmap.

And this survey is across 33,000 South Africans.

So it's very, very robust.

And it says some of your colleagues are right.

That cashback is the number one trigger of number one benefit that South Africans really want, whether they are a wealthier customer or whether they are a more cash strapped customer.

How do you tailor it to different groups of people without making it too complex?

... that you can use to make someone join a program?

Yes, there are.

And, uh, we do an annual s- we write an annual white paper based on data from a company called Brandmap, and this survey is across 33,000 South Africans, so it's very, very robust.

And it says some of your colleagues are right, that cash back is the number one trigger of, or number one benefit that South Africans really want, whether they are a wealthier customer or whether they are a more cash-strapped customer.

Cash back is always the first, uh, prefe- preference.

And then we see other things like points, so points and discounts at, at the till.

Obviously, as you said, you wanna see your till slip going down.

... how do you, how do you tailor it to different groups of people without making it too complex?

How do you go about making sure, putting together that content, making sure you have the right speakers and maintaining that level of quality every year? Because that probably isn't an easy thing to do.

Yeah, so actually the 120 people were at the gala dinner and we had 190 at the events.

We always target about 200 and we always seem to settle about 180, 190 at the two-day International Leaders in Reality Summit.

The big thing for us as a team this year, and I take on the role of recruiting speakers just because of our relationships in the market, was to really bring in international, dare I say the word, heavyweights.

But also have the very best of South Africa on the stage.

So we started off with a panel of the best of South Africa based on our annual white paper, who is really featuring year on year in our white paper.

And then we the next keynote, the opening keynote really was a gentleman who has nothing to do with loyalty whatsoever.

Yes, can we wind back time?

What is it about E-Bucks that they are doing? Is it a case of constantly improving the offering that keeps on winning them? Or are they just doing it better than everybody consistently and the rest of the field hasn't caught up yet?

Great question, Pepper.

It's actually both, to be honest.

So they're, I think, 23 years old, maybe 24 years old already.

So to remain at the top of your category after that many years shows constant improvement.

So what we do see year on year is this continuous drive for innovation, their focus on a digital approach to help customers and obviously to help the bank as well, as Wendy suggested, everything goes both ways.

But they are doing a lot of things better than their competitors.

At what point does the rewards program then, from where we sit now, start doing work that a better price tag should be doing?

There's just one problem: she doesn't even want it.

So Ian, interestingly, you mentioned no value or little value, so they have so many different areas of Vitality as a customer that some elements are little nudges that get you coffee vouchers, and then others are major significant movements that allow you to get deep, deep discounts, for example, off flights.

So I'll talk first of all about, like, the weekly little nudges that get me the coffee voucher, and why does that matter to me? I actually could afford to buy my own coffee, and I don't even drink coffee, so but every week I have so much pleasure in sending that coffee voucher to my daughter.

And she's a student, and every week she utterly loves it 'cause she's like, "Wow, free coffee" [laughs].

So that's part...

Their program is multilayered, and the p- part I'm referring to is called Vitality Active Rewards, which is the w- area that keeps you most engaged on a daily basis.

And I always joke about Vitality and say, "How on earth do you get a customer to engage in an insurance app daily?" And this is how they do it.

In fact, yesterday I was talking at a keynote where I said, "For Vitality Drive, they don't reward you for how much you spend on your premium, they reward you for how well you drive."