And it, you know-

Absolutely.

Well, I, I don't, I don't mean to take us off topic too much, but everything you're saying is absolutely true, that the, there is a lot of things around magic that is truly just science we don't fully understand, uh, at any point in time.

And like I...

A silly example is you go back to when, like, the Harry Potter movies came out, and they had, like, the moving pictures and, uh, you know, various things that now are just very normal with, with the way that technology and our cell phones have evolved, that, i- moving, moving pictures is not magic.

It's just science.

And so back at that point in time when the understanding of science was so low, it was really easy to just try to find ways to explain the phenomenon that's going on.

So what's your thoughts on that?

... have an intuition about the fact that there's gotta be a human element there.

Yes.

Yeah, it, it's true.

Uh, there's a lot I could say on that topic because, uh, um, you know, just, just in looking at judgment and decision-making, I think it's, it's always dangerous to say it's good or bad, right? You have good judgment or you have bad judgment, right? Because judgment is so context-specific in many ways, and, and depending on your experience, your background, you're gonna approach things in a different way.

So there's, there's a spectrum to it.

But what's really interesting right now, and I, I get really excited to talk with people about it, is the way that AI is impacting decision-making because, uh, the, the way that information is presented with AI now is requiring such a, a cognitive shift in terms of evaluating information that is fed to you, rather than generating the information yourself.

So when, you know, decisions are made within an organization, um, before AI, I mean, and, uh, of course the, the internet and, you know, Google and things like that do provide some information, but it did require a lot more independent, autonomous thinking to arrive at a certain decision.

So if you, if you take us kind of a few years down the road, if we have this conversation in a few years, what do you think we'll understand about, um, human leadership in, in, as opposed to kind of all the processes that are gonna get built around that, that we can't quite name today?

Otherwise, the chaos just ensues.

Yeah.

Actually, you're, you're making me think of something that I hadn't considered before.

Um- I think that there is...

I wanna be really careful in, in, in talking about generational differences because I don't want to imply that there's ageism there, but I think culturally, generations experience very different things.

And as people who are, you know, older in the working environment, there's been, I mentioned this on the la- the last podcast we did together, that there's sort of this expectation of an employer that, you know, I think of my, my mom and her attitude towards work, and you, you sort of expect that your employer is going to be a benevolent person that's going to look out for you, and as long as you're showing up as a good worker, they're g- they're gonna have your back.

And I think most people who are Gen Z, Gen...

Um, so as we're talking about this gender disparity, like for anyone who's listening and may, might be skeptical, what's the strongest evidence that the gap is about flawed criteria and not about real differences in capability?

Oof

...

when people, people went home, people were working from their office and, and I mean, millions of people were dying.

People were sick.

We were afraid to have social interactions.

It really puts things into this l- harsh light of what is important to me and what isn't.

And work is just much lower down on the list than it used to be, and employers and leadership haven't quite gotten that message.

[chuckles]

Mm.

And so it's more than just being skeptical, it's be- it's more than just being, you know, having, like, divided political views or, or values and things like that.

It is a, an active process where people are retreating and, um, harming their relationships.

But what is really interesting about it is that when they, when they look at trust from kind of the broad lens, people are distrustful of their employers, they're distrustful of NGOs, they're distrustful of governments, increasingly so, they're, uh, distrustful of NGOs.

Did I say that already?

H- how do you, how do you navigate that?

Uh, well, that's a really good question, and I think, you know, similar to developing strategic self-awareness, you can't solve a problem unless you're aware that there's a problem.

And you can't really fix the problem even with awareness unless you're like really l- willing to pay attention and listen to some of the hard things.