So can I ask you, like, what was your early spiritual environment, and how did that kind of get either integrated or disintegrated into your heart in different ways?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It, and I grew up in a Christian home, um, loving parents who genuinely love God and, and really tried to, you know, teach us, um, and show us the love of God.

And, and so that, I never didn't believe in God, but I share a story in the book in chapter eight about being in middle school, kind of doing the things I was supposed to do, reading my one-year Bible and reading my devotionals and crying out to God and just feeling a brick wall, and that's how I would say, like, for me, there was, again, that divide.

I had the head knowledge, [laughs] the beliefs, but I couldn't connect with God.

In a way, some part of me wanted to.

Could you kinda talk a little bit about that? Like, so what does cultivating a secure soul in relationship to God's love, like how does that look, and, um, what's kinda the path?

You know, if I

just had the right friend, if I just had the right spouse, if I just was... figured out the perfect formula for motherhood.

You know, if I figured out how to be the best dad, you know, we tend to think of security as primarily found in our relationships.

And that's not all, you know, bad.

There are certainly is a certain amount of security that, you know, there are more secure relationships than others, right? As a child, as a spouse, as a, as a parent, as a friend, and also security doesn't originate in these human relationships as a, As therapists, Susie, we talk about attachment theory.

We talk about those earliest bonds that we have with our caregivers as being so important to how secure we feel later than life.

If we had a primary caregiver, a mom or a dad or a grandparent who was present to us, who attuned to us, who cared for us, that kind of according to attachment theory that leads to a more ability, a more security.

okay sister tell us a little bit about just the journey that helped you befriend your own soul

when we're feeling, we're hearing those messages.

Yeah.

I tell the story in the book of being at a Christian women's conference and feeling like I don't belong, and just almost caving in on myself, and you're exactly right.

The first instinct is to be like, "There's something wrong with them." But I, I, I was like, "I don't really think there is.

I don't think anyone outside of me is doing anything wrong." So then there's something wrong with me.

I'm just not good enough.

I, well, I don't, I don't think that's true.

We're animal-

Do you feel like that's part of what the, this sort of m- fulfillment of God's promise to heal everything in the resurrection? Is it sort of this integration and healing of all those parts of us?

I do.

I, I think of the parable of the lost coin or, uh, the lost sheep where Jesus goes after every part of creation, and I think that includes every part of the soul.

And I see it in my work as a therapist, where you'll have someone who's very high-functioning on the surface.

They have a great job.

They've got...

You know, they're married.

Yeah

Are young people getting the wrong messages about what is a valid reason to pursue breaking ties?

I don't think it's wise, and listen, as a therapist who does occasionally post on social media, I try to create a nuanced space for that, and there are others who do that well.

But in general, I don't think it's wise to get therapy advice from social media because as you said, you see these lists of, you know, this is cause for estrangement.

It's like, I always say this, any one of us can be toxic in a moment.

Any one of us could have reason for someone to say, "I don't think I should be in your presence anymore." So yes, I do think there are extremes, especially for this younger generations.

I like to talk to people about three options when we're dealing with toxicity, and again, we have to think about toxicity as patterns of behavior over time.

We are not talking about one-offs.

If you're on that side of the equation, if you are the person who's waiting for a reconciliation, what is the posture that that person can take? Do both parties have to be ready, or can you do the work of reconciliation alone?